joyofdance Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 Hi. I thought I would start this new thread as this subject is one that I have wondered about for a while. I see lots of dance opportunities such as workshops, summer schools, associate schemes, the recent opportunity for children to become involved in a ballet etc that I would love for my daughter to do. Unfortunately they are often costly (on top of general dance tuition) so I am pretty much prevented from applying. I would have really loved for my daughter to have done a summer school this year but I just couldnt afford it. Private lessons are also costly. She is not my only child and family finances only go so far. I dont know much about dance but I think my daughter is probably a talented and good dancer but not exceptional or extremely talented. This means that she probably wouldnt get a scholarships etc if they were available .I suppose what I am trying to say is that, do any of you ever feel "priced out" of your child having the opportunity to reach their potential, improve etc. Most of the kids that I have seen get to good schools and get scholorships/funding are kids that already seem to have more classes, private lessons, summer schools etc so whilst I am not taking anything away from them in terms of talent or potential they do have a head start. When I win the lottery (I had better start buying tickets) amongst other things I am going to set up a fully funded school with fantastic training that takes the "good" kids rather that the exceptional ones. Maybe then our good little dancers could have the opportunity to become exceptional dancers. I would be interested in your thoughts, experience re the feeling of being "priced out" 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulip Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 Yes it does cost an absolute fortune, and gets worse the older they get. Auditions and stay overs are expensive, clothing and foot wear etc. I can imagine other elite sports are equally as expensive, gymnastics, football etc. But yes the cost of private tuition on a one to one, fine tuning everything gives a talented dancer an opportunity to reach their full potential. The talent has to be there to begin with, but yes you are right, you can come to a point when you just can't afford it. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueLou Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 Whilst there are limits to the number of ‘scholarships’ on most schemes, I’m pretty sure that on CAT programmes there is no limit to the number of means-tested financially-assisted places. They offer places based on talent alone, then the amount you have to pay is on a sliding scale based on income and could be nil, so in theory everyone on the programme could be paying nothing! We are fortunate enough to be able to fund dd a reasonable amount now, but I guess like lots of people we feel like we could have done more over the years if finances had permitted. Some workshops/holiday extras, along with a lot of dance ‘kit’, have been given to her by us and other family members as Christmas and birthday gifts, which helps! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joyofdance Posted August 20, 2016 Author Share Posted August 20, 2016 Agreed Tulip. Obviously the child needs to have the talent in the first place but like you say, fine tuning that talent is costly. That is where I get a bit frustrated when I see things advertised. I cant remember exactly what is was but recently I saw an opportunity for children to get involved in a ballet production. It was with one of the elite schools but I cant remember which one. I looked in to it further and it costs £575.00. I couldnt justify spending that (as much as I would love to). I know this is a fact of life and pretty much the same in all area,s, if you cant afford it, you cant have it but it just saddens me that prices are so high in dance. A lot of my daughters peers have weekly ballet privates at £50 a lesson or go regularly to London to do workshops etc. Interestingly not all of them can actually afford it so it isnt all about privlidge. I recently heard of a parent taking out a wonga loan type thing to send her daughter to a residential workshop. Having said that, I know that drdance (Emily) has offered the opportunity for people to pay in instalments if they are struggling. She is the only person I have ever come across that does that. I am not moaning about being out priced (honest) it just feels unfair and unobtainable at times and I wondered if others felt the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harwel Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 The money is always an issue for some families and of course makes a huge difference. We have had some serious financial pressures over the past 10 years but I and my husband have gone without on numerous occasions so the children could do their clubs. However, my son never auditioned for JA as there was no point - we just could not have afforded the train faire and at the time he wouldn't have been the obvious choice for an aided place even if he had got in. Likewise with MA. At 8 he did 2 ballet lessons a week, he didn't do modern or tap or festivals for a year or 2 after that due to cost. We managed to get a shared private lesson every other week when he was about 10. No summer schools, no EYB, no NYB. We gradually added a few more select things which were carefully targeted. His first summer school was Tring at 13 and associate classes once a month. Next thing we know he's at Tring on an MDS. You don't have to do all these things for them to be successful. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balletcoach Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 Yes, it's so sad to see some children that 'have to dance' can't afford it in the first place and been never discovered... In my opinion the State or Councils have to stop seeing ballet as very elithish, yes it is for an elithish audience, but the dancers mostly comes from all different backgrounds as it is purely on tallent. Can't imagine the very elithish parents wanted their offspring earn their money from dance...instead of owning companies etc. In my days we (as students) were paid to attend a ballet school (but after a very serious selection process). If students done very well they got increase in pay, if not - were out. But it's more vocational thing. As here - there are two different paths: recreational or vocational. For the recreational you need indeed probably more technical side to shine in productions and workshops - and to get there cost money. For vocational pathway - most important thing is what's child born with (what is free of charge) and then some technics, but no virtuosity necessary. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MumToTu Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 I agree ballet is so very expensive my husband is always moaning about the cost of dds expensive hobby, although worth every penny I believe ???? I can't afford for my dd to do another summer school, although she is privileged enough to have done one. There are many things I can't afford to take her too on top of her lessons ie actually to see the ballet. Just as a note my dd used to participate in a gymnastics squad and it is a lot cheaper, as if you get selected for any squad is is usually very subsidised by clubs recreational programme or county squad funds but you have to be talented to be selected so it's on merit only and plus no costumes or ballet shoes involved. I think we paid 50 pound a month, I dread to add up the cost of ballet ???? But I think i feel lucky to have a daughter who loves it x 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stirrups36 Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 ALWAYS ask and explain your position. You will not be the first, and by no means will be the last. Any decent organisation will have something in place, be it instalments or reduced means tested fees. If they don't, I would look elsewhere. Ballet, as also other activities, is sometimes a good example of the 'Matthew effect'. I.e. To those who have, more will be given 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joyofdance Posted August 20, 2016 Author Share Posted August 20, 2016 Ballet, as also other activities, is sometimes a good example of the 'Matthew effect'.I.e. To those who have, more will be given That sums up how I feel at times stirrups. I hear a lot of parents talking about how their child auditioned for so and so and got in but what they dont say is that they have had, extra classes, zillions of privates, lessons on auditions etc. It stops me applying for things because I think, I just cant compete. Its the same on the festival circuit. Most of the kids that do well are hot housed with all the extra input. Lol Im starting to sound bitter now but honestly Im not its just a fact of life. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drdance Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 Joyofdance thankyou for referring to that - I do always give parents the opportunity to make arrangements to pay in installments if necessary, but I don't always do this at the outset (perhaps I should). What usually happens is I make a general request that fees are paid by such and such a date and then follow that up with a reminder to those who haven't paid, within which I then say something like "if you are having any difficulty with this please do contact me and we can make alternative arrangements" and at that point sometimes people will get in touch. I think money is a very personal subject for a lot of people and perhaps understandably people don't like to say if they are having problems, and having applied for something and then decided/realized they can't afford it will just "slope off quietly" and not attend, rather than getting in touch and explaining the situation, perhaps for the sake of pride? But I am human and having spent a lot of time as a student, followed by working in roles which aren't exactly lucrative I myself have exactly the same thoughts about courses and seminars that I wish to go on. And I too am guilty of avoiding it rather than getting in touch with the organizers and explaining my situation. I would always advise people to contact the organizers in these kinds of situations - if you don't ask, you don't get. The worst that can happen is they say No, and then you're in the same position as if you'd not asked. Having said all of that, there are some performance based courses (not naming any names) that are hundreds of pounds and the kids might spend half of their rehearsals sitting watching other people dancing! 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stirrups36 Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 I think any extra money we have went on associate schemes, summer schools, and specific boys courses. For the price of a performance course, your daughter could have done Some weekend or longer summer courses. For younger ones, associate schemes are a great indicator (although not infallible). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joyofdance Posted August 20, 2016 Author Share Posted August 20, 2016 Stirrups Re performance courses as opposed to training opportunities, i am learning as i go along really and starting to understand what the difference is and what the benefits are etc. My daughter has been dancing for a few years but I still feel relatively new to all this. I was with a dance school previously that didnt allow us to do anything externally so i wasnt aware of all the things that were available. I am less restricted now so have started investigating opportunities and coming across the high prices. This forum is really helpful in that the advice given is invaluable and helping me to make informed choices. When money is tight its important that i spend it wisely. i have an older child at Uni so there are significant finacial pressures there. drdance, I would have sloped off quietly but the fact that you did add that sentence about having any difficulty gave me the confidence to get in touch. I have declined things before based on affordability and have felt really uncomfortable, one particular time I was told that "dedicated parents find the finances" after that I wouldnt have paid for their service even if I had it but it does put you off approaching the subject. Thanks to you my daughter is getting an opportunity that wouldnt have been available to her. Maybe others will follow your example, we can but hope. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TooTu Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 I'm reading this with great interest as I really do worry about the financial side of things. We as a family already make a lot of sacrifices to be able to keep our DDs dancing which we accept as one of those things that you do for your kids. However oldest DD is now at an age where she is keen to attend summer schools & workshops etc too but travel costs alone limit what we can afford. I would love to look into associate schemes but as we have nothing local that would mean pricey travel & accomodation costs each month which I would worry about being able to afford on a regular basis. We have managed one summer school this year but then think next year it would be good for her to maybe do a couple. If she is as serious about continuing with dance as she says she is then I worry if we are doing enough for her & providing her with enough opportunities outside of her own dance school. Within her own dance school we are very fortunate that she has a fantastic teacher who both nutures & pushes her to the best of her ability but it doesn't stop you looking at some of the things available & think how they could benefit from them too. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vonrothbart Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 I don't know how old your DD is joyofdance, but a lot of young dancers gain places at auditions on potential rather than present ability. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarahw Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 I agree joyofdance that it is a definite advantage to have money! My dd has an MDS but we have invested a lot to get there. My personal impression is that if someone in this situation wants to go to vocational school they should audition sooner rather than later when potential still scores highly over achievement. You are correct that you need to invest wisely - my personal feeling is that performance based schemes may not offer best value for money in terms of technique teaching. I would say you get good advice about that on here. If your local school is good then they are usually good value. I would question closely the size of any classes at Associate Schemes etc. Good luck! Life is not fair xx 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarahw Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 Also agree that other sports like gym/rugby are much cheaper. They are subsidised top down by England Rugby etc. Rugby a lot cheaper than gym here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suzysue Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 I definitely feel that lack of finances prevents many talented dancers from having the opportunity to find out what might be. It's not just the fees and leotards, costumes, ballet shoes etc but travelling, car parking (wear and tear on the old banger!), eating on the go and coffees whilst waiting, overnight stays, tickets to watch.... And then there's time off work, possibly allowing siblings to do the occasional non dance related activity or hobby. The odds are definitely stacked against anyone who is not comfortably off. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulip Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 Summer schools can be a good experience and you may learn some things, but unless these new skills are taught and corrected continuously, the these new skills can get lost. If money is to be spent wisely, in my experience regarding my daughter private one to one coaching is invaluable. Correcting, taking them onto the next level etc. I don't mean this for festivals, but for development. If money is to be spent wisely, my advise is to find an excellent private coach and spend your cash on that. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suzysue Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 (edited) Audition fees are, imho, one of the most devisive, £30 to audition and get no feedback is not something to be taken lightly on a budget. Edited August 20, 2016 by suzysue 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suzysue Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 *Devisive* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TooTu Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 Summer schools can be a good experience and you may learn some things, but unless these new skills are taught and corrected continuously, the these new skills can get lost. If money is to be spent wisely, in my experience regarding my daughter private one to one coaching is invaluable. Correcting, taking them onto the next level etc. I don't mean this for festivals, but for development. If money is to be spent wisely, my advise is to find an excellent private coach and spend your cash on that. That's reassuring. Thank you Tulip 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuddledMama Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 The odds are definitely stacked against anyone who is not comfortably off. This so much!!! In DD's old dance school with the elitism, it was very much a case of X child is better then Y child (in the eyes of the teachers) but how can you possibly compare for example a child who does several private lessons a week, EYB, LCB, associates etc etc with someone who can't afford to do that or it just wouldn't work (other children, travel costs, work commitments, etc, all the things previously mentioned). It does feel like we are fighting a losing battle sometimes with DD, she was held back so much in dance (long story!) and is now playing catch up, luckily for us her new teacher allows her to double up on classes for free. I do worry about the cost of it all and I find myself now wondering if it's worth her doing X class because although she enjoys it she is not getting much in the way of training and that money could be spent elsewhere (but then I also think it's good for her to do something she can just enjoy with no pressure of exams or worrying she's not 'good enough'). She has a massive issue with flexibility & tricks from being made to feel so bad by her old dance teachers (one of them even suggested I have her taken for an x-ray because there was clearly something wrong with her hips) because she wasn't flexible or able to do any tricks like the other girls, so trying to help her with that is difficult. I want her to get a good solid foundation in dance and worry about tricks/flexibility once she's caught up BUT she is so fixated on it, it is something that lowered her confidence to practically nothing. Her new school doesn't have anything in the way of tricks (and we have no other local option) she went off to pineapple with a friend today, I've had excited little texts to tell me she managed her front walkover and she will feel so much better about herself because of it. I'd love to be able to take her to pineapple every Saturday but it's just too costly when I think what we could get at her local school (cost of the train for the two of us and the 3 classes she does at pineapple is roughly £40 each time) added up over a 12 week term that is £480, classes at her school average £45 a term, so going just 1 time is almost the equivalent of a whole term of classes at her school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pups_mum Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 The chances of success in lots of activities depend a lot on parents' resources. One of my relatives is an accomplished dinghy sailor who was tipped for great things when younger. But he was competing against kids whose parents could afford new sails and rig several times a year whereas he had to make his last as long as possible. Eventually he couldn't keep up, as even with grants he won he couldn't afford competitive equipment, travel etc and just had to accept that. And of course it's not just parental income that has an impact. How many siblings a child has, geographical location, flexibility of parental jobs, parental health and probably multiple other factors are all going to make a difference to how much support a family are able to give to a child's ambitions. We've got a fairly high income which of course is a plus point, but that's offset by having 3 children all with different interests and living in a geographically isolated area. Travel time and the associated additional expenses rule out lots of opportunities for my kids that "on paper" we should be able to afford. I doubt there are many, if any, fields where success isn't influenced by factors beyond natural talent and hard work. Personal circumstances and plain old luck are often crucial. All any of us can do really is do the best we can with what we've got. There's probably no truly ideal set of circumstances. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisa O`Brien Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 ALWAYS ask and explain your position. You will not be the first, and by no means will be the last. Any decent organisation will have something in place, be it instalments or reduced means tested fees. If they don't, I would look elsewhere. Ballet, as also other activities, is sometimes a good example of the 'Matthew effect'. I.e. To those who have, more will be given Stirrups, this is the first time I have ever heard the phrase the " Matthew Effect". Just looked it up, and my mum always used to say "The rich get richer and the poor get poorer". This is so true isn't it? Just in everyday situations. 48 hours ago I was waiting for a friend to pay me back the £50 I owed her. I lent it to her the week before and she still hadn't paid me. I know £50 isn't a lot to most people, but it is to me. My electric every week costs £20, that I have to buy each week. With actual money. Or else when it runs out , so does the electricity. I couldn't really afford to lend it to her in the first place to be honest, but she was desperate. So what was I supposed to do? I wouldn't see anybody go without, and hope if I was ever in a fix they would help me out too. Waiting every day for the money back, all the while the money in the electric was running lower. As was the bread and the milk. Then four days ago I completely ran out of washing up liquid. I have been washing the dishes and obviously making sure I thoroughly rinse them since then, with shampoo. [ Works just as well actually, if you're ever stuck. ] She told me I was definately going to get the money back yesterday morning . Yesterday morning came and went. No friend turned up ,with no money. Yesterday evening she texted me, apologising. I was starting to panic a bit now and told her I absolutely needed to have that £50 back as things were becoming a bit desperate. Told her to try and borrow the money off someone else so she could pay me asap. Bless her, she turned up with the £50 this morning, and a Thank You card for me helping her out. Twenty minutes or so earlier Sean checked his bank account online expecting there to be £1.50 in . There was £3,475 in his account. His student grant had come through, four weeks earlier than expected. I told him to ring Student Finance NI immediately to double check it was the correct amount as he was only expecting £927 for a term, not the whole year's funding in one go. They told him because he has taken out a grant and a loan this year instead of just the loan ,he is entitled to more money. She told him to expect another £1,000 to be deposited into his account within the next few days or weeks.That part has to be paid back. Sean will be able to give me the odd 20 quid towards his keep as well. I'm just pleased to have electricity. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 As with anything else in life it pays to shop around. BRB do rep workshops that cost around £20 depending on the level which is not bad for 2 hours with a great teacher and a pianist. If you can get into London Danceworks do drop in lessons from around £8. Anything with 'performance' in it is going to be expensive because the fees you pay are helping to cover the costs of the costumes and the actual production. And while its all too true that costs seem to spiral as they get older there can also be opportunities to start to earn money as well. My dd is now old enough to help out at her local dance school and in return gets a discount on her own classes. And it goes without saying that her birthday and Christmas presents are always of a dance related nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CeliB Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 Gosh Lisa that sounds tough, but good news about the grant... In answer to the original question I find it hard to imagine anyone who could defend the position that good dancers AREN'T priced out of the running if they come from lower income families. I would take it one further and say even exceptional dancers might well never make it if they come from low income families- after all there are plenty of households in the UK who wouldn't be able to afford a single ballet lesson- and even if vocational schools try and award places on raw potential rather than current skill/technique, in order to know about and even want to audition a child would have had to attend some lessons and be able to travel to an audition and have the requisite clothing. Of course as posters above have suggested there are ways to shop around, be judicious with the opportunities that are available and so on. But I can honestly say that my DS could never have taken up the opportunities he has been offered without masses of financial support (100% scholarships and evaluations of 'exceptionally talented' notwithstanding). But honestly this is why we as a society should fund the arts, sports and other forms of education (both elite and non elite). Unfortunately the 'haves' are in charge at the moment and not interested in furthering opportunities for the 'have nots'... 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flowerpot Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 Aww Lisa what a good friend you are. My dd is only 7 and I do worry about the cost of everything. At the moment she does the minimum, one 40 minute class a week but I know that will soon change as she progress's and wants to improve. I know nothing about dance but have learnt a lot from here and hopefully it will help me make some informed decisions about what's best for her and what is good value for money. I worked overtime for the past 2 months to send her to a summer school. I have 2 other children and like to think the spare money is shared between my family. I too have asked for money for birthdays, Xmas to buy her the leotards and dance bag that she wants. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulip Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 Muddled mama what type of dance is your daughter interested in. In ballet there are no tricks and a good dance school would only teach good, clean, strong technique. Would your daughter like to Persue a career in dance. Another point to consider, for a high percentage of students no matter how much extra coaching opportunities they will still not be better than the student who has that X factor, this is why at age 11 vocational schools look at pure potential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarahw Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 My dd paid for half SS fees this time and it will continue...... birthday money, cleaning etc etc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TooTu Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 My dd paid for half SS fees this time and it will continue...... birthday money, cleaning etc etc That's what my dd plans to do for next year to enable her to go to a second summer school. I guess it shows how much they love & enjoy dancing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joyofdance Posted August 20, 2016 Author Share Posted August 20, 2016 Lisa, its great to go in to your bank account and find a windfall. My eldest gets a grant to top up the loan because of our income. Its a real help. Muddledmamma, funnily enough my daughter is very flexible and is put under pressure to overstretch and learn tricks. I used to encourage it because I thought it was the right thing to do but through this forum and other conversations with people I have learnt that it isnt. I have been talking to her about this and showing her articles (drdance put a really good one on her fb page the other day) She is now feeling confident enough to not be put under pressure and understands how important it is to practice safely. She is 12 though so at an age where she is interested in things and open to looking at research. Some of you have hit the nail on the head re costs, its the travelling. time off of work, etc that also adds to the cost. Its really expensive for us to get to London so that is out of the question. Some of my daughters friends go to Pineapple regularly but we cant manage that. I know private lessons are sensible but she enjoys the group things, making friends etc so we cant have regular privates and classes. Its good to hear that I am not the only one with these problems...Damn I forgot to buy a lottery ticket...again. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuddledMama Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 Muddled mama what type of dance is your daughter interested in. In ballet there are no tricks and a good dance school would only teach good, clean, strong technique. Would your daughter like to Persue a career in dance. Another point to consider, for a high percentage of students no matter how much extra coaching opportunities they will still not be better than the student who has that X factor, this is why at age 11 vocational schools look at pure potential. She does a bit of everything and seems to love all styles but she hates ballet, well that is what she has been saying for the past couple of years but now I know what was going on I feel that is based on how she was emotionally and physically abused by her ballet teacher as well as staying in a lower grade for a long time (I think she found it way too easy and so lost interest) she does love her inter foundation classes at her new school so I don't know how serious she is when she says she hates ballet. We've talked about it a lot and the only answer she can give me really is she wants to perform whether that's acting, singing or dancing (but dance is her favourite) she just loves all of it. Her old dance school was so focused on competitions and tricks/flexibility and they made it clear to her she would never be a great dancer because she couldn't do any of the tricks/flexibility and that has stuck with her. So I'm torn between keeping her focused on good technique but also trying to build her confidence back up and unfortunately mentally she still thinks she's no good because she can't do the splits or any of the tricks that in her words "everyone can do" 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilacfairy Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 I wouldn't worry about not having privates , sometimes you can gain just as much from a group class where you can compare yourself to others . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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