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How about we use a random thread for ideas or non-performance related questions triggered by seeing a performance, reading a discussion in a performance related thread or a review from the links section?

 

Yes, this a blatant attempt to get 'Performances seen' threads to focus on the actual performances seen ;)

 

Here's my starter for 10:

I don't think that the impressions and opinions posted by forum members are reviews of performances, and neither do they need to be. There are occasional exceptions when posters analyze a specific performance in depth but the majority of posts in 'performances seen' threads are expressing a posters opinion and impressions.

 

As with many other things in life, there isn't one answer of 'what exactly constitutes a valid review'. I would expect to see some analysis of the performance, a clear statement of personal preferences instead of a simple declaration along the lines of 'this is the best/worst' or 'so and so did it better in 1805' without stating why the reviewer thinks so. But most importantly for me: a reviewer needs to be able to write in a way that I find engaging - a dry treatise is unlikely to appeal, and long descriptive passages describing plot in detail should be avoided at all cost.

 

 

 

 

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OK I'll follow on with a thought triggered by the discussion (now locked) about the Bolshoi's Flames of Paris.  The comment was that what looked like a spontaneous run forward to take a curtain call did in fact happen at other performances so couldn't have been spontaneous after all.

 

To my mind that is a classic of show business, something has to be very well rehearsed to actually look spontaneous!  Comedians such as Morecambe and Wise are like this too, what appears to be an ad lib is actually carefully scripted.  One of my favourite "opposites" quotes was from Dolly Parton, "You have no idea how expensive it is to make me look this cheap!"

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Short and sweet reviews work for me Coated. I’m quite happy with a very brief write up but I do enjoy some of the longer ones. I find any comment quite useful as by now I know which members have the same likes and dislikes as me and this helps me decide what to see.

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I saw the first Flames of Paris and at the curtain calls Krysanova and Tsvirko were doing a run to the front when the curtain came down and they looked at one another in surprise and stopped in their tracks, disappearing behind the descending curtain. I can’t help but wonder if this inspired the others to do what they did?

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I loved seeing Alexandrova and Lantratov run forward as I'd never encountered this before so to read this would be scripted has now somewhat spoiled the magic of that moment for me???? whether that's me being naive/sentimental I don't know.

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To my mind that is a classic of show business, something has to be very well rehearsed to actually look spontaneous!

On the locked Flames thread FLOSS says she read "Ashton thought that the gift of apparent spontaneity was one of the greatest gifts a dancer could possess." Apparent spontaneity, what a lovely phrase!

 

I have been in the business of show for some decades, various different genres, and so until recently thought myself pretty smart at spotting this kind of non-spontaneous spontaneity. But that turns out to be nothing more than silly vanity on my part: I was on set for the filming of a showpiece by the young cross-over violinist star, David Garrett (the one who is in a spot of romantic-legal bother in the US at the moment) He gave a totally committed and brilliant performance, throwing himself about a bit, even getting some of his eventually sweaty long hair over his face at one point, all natural exuberance and all most impressive.

 

Then we did retakes for the rest of the day, and I was amazed to see the hair fly on to his face at the same point each take, always to be wiped away the same way, just about on the exact same bar.

 

Asking around - and here at last is my point - I spoke with people who teach the violin at international level and it seems the new generation - the few who get to the top of their studies and are destined for big careers - are now tutored with videos and mirrors, to deliver a visually as well as musically effective performance. Poor kids, as if winning music competitions was not hard enough without adding this kind of extra element to think about.

Edited by Geoff
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I loved seeing Alexandrova and Lantratov run forward as I'd never encountered this before so to read this would be scripted has now somewhat spoiled the magic of that moment for me whether that's me being naive/sentimental I don't know.

 

Too perilous to have been rehearsed in my opinion, the front curtain must be mighty heavy and they only just made it.

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I loved seeing Alexandrova and Lantratov run forward as I'd never encountered this before so to read this would be scripted has now somewhat spoiled the magic of that moment for me whether that's me being naive/sentimental I don't know.

 

So did I, but being realistic would the bolshoi management allow this if there was any danger of injury to their artists?

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I don't think that the impressions and opinions posted by forum members are reviews of performances, and neither do they need to be...the majority of posts in 'performances seen' threads are expressing a posters opinion and impressions.

 

This is an interesting point and raises a question: Whether you're a professional reviewer or an amateur posting here, aren't all reviews by definition simply an expression of the writer's opinion and impressions? If that's the case, and I would contend that it is, then whatever and however you write remains a "review."

 

To give an example of what I mean, I lacerated the violin soloist for taking liberties with the score in the White Swan Pas de Deux. Was this my impression? Well, yes. But it's also fact. There's a printed score that doesn't have exaggerated vibrato written all over it.

 

Or was this a review? Well, isn't my impression offered to someone else by definition a review? If I print my opinion you can accept it or reject it, but you consider it more or less as a review to which you have a personal response shaped by your own experience.

 

This raises another issue: Whether you choose to use the word "review" or not, any commentary on a ballet we've seen tells you not just about the ballet but also about the reviewer. What each of us observes at the same ballet is digested through the prism of personal experience and knowledge and for each of us, that is different. And, inevitably, it shapes our response. The better we come to know reviewers -- or in this case posters on the forum -- the easier it becomes to make sense of their thoughts.

 

 

Thanks for the thought-provoking thread.

Edited by godots_arrived
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I always think of a review as being a bit more analytical, more comprehensively descriptive of the whole evening, than just a few words saying if you did or didn't enjoy, and that dancer X was great etc. I would expect words on both good and bad points, with words on many of the elements that make up a performance. But I see your point that any form of posting about a performance would constitute a 'review' - to me its just jotting down a quick opinion though.

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I always think of a review as being a bit more analytical, more comprehensively descriptive of the whole evening, than just a few words saying if you did or didn't enjoy, and that dancer X was great etc. I would expect words on both good and bad points, with words on many of the elements that make up a performance. But I see your point that any form of posting about a performance would constitute a 'review' - to me its just jotting down a quick opinion though.

 

Yes, I think to justify the word 'review' in the sense in which it's normally understood you really have to cover aspects of the performance you may not otherwise be motivated to write about. A 'review' is more than just a reaction to a performance (or a performer), or an opinion about a single aspect (or a few aspects) of a performance. I am very appreciative of both 'reviews' and shorter posts on this forum.

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Since this is "The Random Thread," here's another thing I have been thinking about: When is Swan Lake not Swan Lake? Actually, what I really mean is when does a work of art stop being "genuine," or at least a genuine interpretation of the creator's intentions? The rolling of the ball on this thought was started by the Bolshoi's current Swan Lakes and FoPs, hence the chosen wording -- although I am not suggesting that I don't think either of those performances were not the ballets intended (although whether they are is precisely the point.)

 

The question is, how much tinkering to the choreography (call it tinkering, revising, updating...as you will) and changing of the narrative (in the case of Swan Lake, the ending in particular) can you do without changing the "golden thread" so much that it starts to diminish what the intended Swan Lake is?  I don't know FoP nearly as well, but someone in the closed thread wrote a lengthy and erudite post suggesting the present version is significantly different to the original. So is it still FoP? Just because the basic story and costumes are approximately the same, is this enough? Is a work of art what the creator intended, or is it what has become with each successive layer of interpretation? And what do we (or you) want to see?

 

This gets even more interesting with music where at least as many, if not more, liberties are taken with scores, (particularly by certain conductors.) If you take scores literally, most of us will never have heard an authentically played Beethoven Symphony (because virtually no one observes his metronome markings. We play Beethoven considerably more slowly than it is written, perhaps with good reason.) Repeats are sometimes observed and sometimes dropped in many works...should following the composer's instructions be a literal process or is composition and choreography just a rough guide to a creative intent? And if yes, why are some recordings of the same piece as much as 15 minutes different in length (various examples) and some ballets barely recognizable in places to what you expect?

 

One question is what do we, or what should we expect when we go to see Swan Lake (or anything else)? Should we expect an execution of what the original work is, or an interpretation, or a revision, or an update? And when do the latter three stop being Swan Lake (if they do at all?) If I'd said in my Bolshoi review "well, I enjoyed that but it wasn't Flames of Paris" would that observation have been justified. Might have I have been right? If I'm staging SL, am I allowed to reduce the fouettes by half because that's how I think it should go, or altogether change the ending?

 

Just wittering but if anyone has any thoughts... 

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Too perilous to have been rehearsed in my opinion, the front curtain must be mighty heavy and they only just made it.

 

But it descends with controlled speed and force.  It isn't as if somebody disconnects it at the top and then just drops it.  I've seen curtains come down on people's heads/shoulders (thanks to optimistically-timed full company bows) on many occasions and never yet heard of any harm being done.

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The question is, how much tinkering to the choreography (call it tinkering, revising, updating...as you will) and changing of the narrative (in the case of Swan Lake, the ending in particular) can you do without changing the "golden thread" so much that it starts to diminish what the intended Swan Lake is?

Very interesting question. At its heart is a version of an ancient paradox which goes back at least to Plato, The Ship of Theseus (there is a great animated video on YouTube illustrating the story if you don't know it). The point is that this conundrum is often set as a discussion for people who have never encountered philosophy before, as history has determined there is no absolutely correct answer and so one can always find something to say.

 

Looking forward to hearing what people think.

Edited by Geoff
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Yes, I think to justify the word 'review' in the sense in which it's normally understood you really have to cover aspects of the performance you may not otherwise be motivated to write about. A 'review' is more than just a reaction to a performance (or a performer), or an opinion about a single aspect (or a few aspects) of a performance. I am very appreciative of both 'reviews' and shorter posts on this forum.

 

I don’t have the critical skills to write a review so I pretty much always just write what I felt spontaneously on the night – usually some sort of words or impressions form in my mind when I am watching and I use those words rather than writing analytically the next day or even later. For me ballet is a thing of the moment and my thoughts are of that moment. If I don’t enjoy a performance then I don’t usually feel motivated to say so – unless it is really dire.

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[quote name="bridiem" post="181326" timestamp="1470905191"

I am very appreciative of both 'reviews' and shorter posts on this forum.

 

Me too. I really enjoy reading what members have to say on all sorts of topics on this forum. I like that there are a mixture of writing styles & outlooks, with freedom to express your views / thoughts / opinions (within forum rules!) as a brief or longer post, in a review style or otherwise.

 

I can see why there are calls for threads to stick to the topic, such as the Bolshoi Swan Lake thread. Personally, generally speaking, I don't mind a few digressions, especially towards the end of a run when so much has already been said. Thinking back over the time I've been reading threads here, it's often felt as though digressions are playing a part in building a sense of community among us. So I like this random thread idea too :)

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Very interesting question. At its heart is a version of an ancient paradox which goes back at least to Plato, The Ship of Theseus (there is a great animated video on YouTube illustrating the story if you don't know it). The point is that this conundrum is often set as a discussion for people who have never encountered philosophy before, as history has determined there is no absolutely correct answer and so one can always find something to say.

 

Looking forward to hearing what people think.

 

Trigger’s broom…

 

I always feel with that sort of thing it’s easy, you just define what something is, if it is that then it is, if it’s not, then it’s not. But then I’m an engineer :P .

 

So something might not be the same but it might be similar. Matthew Bourne’s Swan Lake is not Swan Lake but it is similar (using my personal definition of Swan Lake  :D ).

 

Edited to add: I watched the 90 second version of The Ship of Theseus, hope that was long enough to get it all?

Edited by Timmie
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I watched the 90 second version of The Ship of Theseus, hope that was long enough to get it all?

You want something which takes you through at least five logically consistent, but different, possible answers, as that is where the fun lies! No one answer - as found to date - deals with all elements of the question.

Edited by Geoff
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While I greatly appreciate the long, detailed, informed, professional-standard critiques, what I get uniquely from this forum is a sense of what it was like to be in the audience, especially if it is a big occasion like a gala, a debut or a flower-throw - the sort of thing a professional reviewer cannot indulge in. 

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For me, the music leads. So Swan Lake is Swan Lake as long as Tchaikovsky's music is the score - irrespective of what choreographers do stepwise and/or complicitly with conductors/music directors to that score's order (or tempo). Think we'd need to qualify it as 'Choregrapher X's' Swan Lake, or whatever, so we'd know whether a contemporary version, or a more traditional one. Of course - that says nothing about the quality of the reworked versions!!

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You want something which takes you through at least five logically consistent, but different, possible answers, as that is where the fun lies! No one answer - as found to date - deals with all elements of the question.

 

Well I’ve watched the longer version and it looks like a job creation scheme for philosophers :P . If the problem is not precisely defined then the solution will be equally imprecise. But this is getting too off-topic even for an off-topic thread!

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Swan Lake  has been in the public domain for so long that it is impossible to lay down any hard and fast rules about when a dance work using this Tchaikovsky score ceases to be Swan Lake. As far as the choreographic text is concerned it seems to me that it is very much a question of the tolerance to change of local audiences which determines what can be passed off as Swan Lake.

 

When I think of the various versions of the ballet which I have seen there are a few bits of choreography which appear in most versions, interestingly they come from Ivanov's contribution to the enterprise rather than Petipa's, but I am not sure that they amount to a golden thread of narrative or choreography. Anglophone audiences tend to have a very different idea of what the choreographic text of the ballet should look like when compared to  Parisian or Russian audience .

 

Anglophone audiences tend to be more conservative than the Russians perhaps because they came to this ballet .later than the Russians did and were taught it by White Russians who clung to the pre-revolutionary narrative and aesthetic.Parisian audiences believe that Nureyev's version is the real thing rather than a distillation and reworking of Kirov productions and tend to think that the RB's Dowell production was old fashioned in comparison with it. The Russian versions incorporate the early twentieth century "improvements" and the Soviet aesthetic of technical display and the active, heroic prince but there the agreement ends the Maryiinsky audience believes that the K. Sergeyev's production contains a text which is purest Petipa while  the Bolshoi audience believe that Grigorovitch's reworkings of the text provide a pure distillation of the best of Petipa. Now I accept that these are  broad generalisations as far as cultural groupings are concerned but it seems to me that our individual view of what constitutes Swan Lake is a product of its local performance history, the cultural myths which attach to that history and our initial experience of it in performance. I think these elements determine how far we are prepared to accept deviations from the locally accepted text of Swan Lake.

 

Russian choreographers, beginning with Petipa and Ivanov, have been particularly active in  reworking Swan Lake since it was first seen in Moscow. In fact you could argue that just as tinkering with La Sylphide is a national past time in Denmark tinkering with Swan Lake is a national past time in Russia which makes Ratmansky's efforts to restore a text that Petipa and Ivanov might recognise as their Swan Lake all the more intriguing. Given how much controversy the restored Sleeping Beauty generated in St Petersburg it seems unlikely that either company which has Ratmansky's reconstruction in its repertory is likely to be invited to St. Petersburg in 2018 but I wonder if the Bolshoi just might do so.

 

Interestingly after the initial reworking of the score to accommodate Petipa/Ivanov's  version there has been considerably less tinkering with the score of Swan Lake than there has of the scenario and choreography.

Edited by FLOSS
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Picking up on the theme of a Choreographers interpretation of a "classic" I am really looking forward to Khan's version of Giselle which premier's at Sadler's Wells in November.

 

It is incorrect to say it premier's at Sadler's Wells, it premier's in Manchester I think and ends in Sadler's Wells.

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It is incorrect to say it premier's at Sadler's Wells, it premier's in Manchester I think and ends in Sadler's Wells.

 

 

 

Indeed the premiere of Akram Khan's interpretation is in Manchester - I am there on the first night!

 

However you could be forgiven for thinking that the premiere is at Sadler's Wells as the way it was announced over a year ago now was as part of the release about the partnership between ENB and SW.  Giselle is, in fact, also a co-production with the Manchester International Festival.

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Indeed the premiere of Akram Khan's interpretation is in Manchester - I am there on the first night!

 

However you could be forgiven for thinking that the premiere is at Sadler's Wells as the way it was announced over a year ago now was as part of the release about the partnership between ENB and SW.  Giselle is, in fact, also a co-production with the Manchester International Festival.

 

Hooray for Tamara and her staff for giving the opening performances outside of London. As a Lancashire lad I think London always seem to get priority over first nights etc. so to see this in Manchester is excellent news.

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Hooray for Tamara and her staff for giving the opening performances outside of London. As a Lancashire lad I think London always seem to get priority over first nights etc. so to see this in Manchester is excellent news.

 

 

ENB has had a history of this - when still LFB with Peter Schaufuss as AD the premiere of Natalia Makarova's production of Swan Lake was at the Alhambra in Bradford.  A production (sadly I can't remember which) was also premiered in Liverpool many years ago.

 

Of course BRB and NB productions tend to premiere in their home towns of Birmingham and Leeds (although Jane Eyre premiered in Doncaster - still Yorkshire).

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I like the 'When is a swan lake not Swan Lake?' question. The Maillot Swan Lake is the most radical I've seen. I can't remember whether it uses the Tchaikovsky score. I think that it does but the music is re-ordered (and parts of the score are probably omitted). I don't think that you could have a R&J without the basic ingredients of some sort of forbidden love and the two protagonists ending up dead at the end. With Swan Lake there seems to be more scope for psychological interpretations (eg dreams, alter egos) and different endings but perhaps that's because the origins of the basic story seem to be rooted in folklore whereas R&J is an established written work of literature.

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