Dance School Fraud

[prancerdancer]

Imagine paying fees for a school or college only to discover that it's not a school or college as happened with these parents ( victims) then only Trading Standards prosecute the con man and you as parents then get told you shouldn't have received your child benefit for two years because your child wasn't in further education. How dreadful poor parents, poor students and what's been learnt from their experience !

 

Makes you wonder who is actually doing the CRB checks on teachers qualified or not ?

[prancerdancer]

Thank you Hull that's very kind of you, I think if the forum can guide parents to make a more 'informed decisions' then that's got to be in the best interests of the students and after all that's what it is all about our children and their future

[Jan McNulty]

 

 

Finally, I see some training places have a SQA logo too (including some not based in Scotland) - is this something we should be investigating too?

 

 

I think it is quite common these days for establishments to accredit courses that are being held nowhere in their vicinity.

 

 

Makes you wonder who is actually doing the CRB checks on teachers qualified or not ?

 

To what extent do CRB checks go into someone's qualifications as opposed to their "character".  I appreciate CRB has broadened since it was introduced but I thought it was mainly to cover the fact that the CRB applicant would not harm a vulnerable person. 

 

Could someone please explain the current CRB to me in laymen's terms?

[prancerdancer]

There are different levels of checks but basically it's to see if the person interacting with children ( under 18) are convicted of a criminal offence in UK. It's now changed its name but use to mean criminal records bureau.

Edited August 8, 2016 by prancerdancer

[Jan McNulty]

There are different levels of checks but basically it's to see if the person interacting with children ( under 18) are convicted of a criminal offence in UK. It's now changed its name but use to mean criminal records bureau.

 

 

So not that much different from my original thought.  Thanks for the clarification.

 

Not that it has got much to do with dance school fraud but I know from personal experience  that when some contractors were applying for contracts to implement systems for my employer (a government department) they did not have the staff to man them and only recruited when awarded the contract.  I can see their point because they could not necessarily as a company afford that many staff if they did not have the work.  It could mean that perhaps the best candidates were not available.  I remember a system being built by contractors that included a process that was run nightly.  On going live the process took 48 hours to run!  The person writing the programme had never used Cobol and his training consisted of borrowing some of our listings!  When he had disappeared through the door one of the permanent team optimised the programme and it ran in 5 minutes!!

 

This sort of thing, sadly, goes on in all walks of life but seems particularly awful when children are involved.

[cornishprincess]

So...this means that a college or school or whatever which isn't accredited to anyone could have teachers with criminal records as they don't need to be CRB checked or whatever it is called now? That could be a real possibility??? That is a terrifying prospect....

[Jan McNulty]

I thought that anyone who was working with vulnerable people had to be CRB checked.

 

A chum of mine acts as an invigilator for adults taking professional qualifications.  She has to maintain her CRB check.

 

I suppose if you are applying to a school one thing you could ask about is if all the staff have the appropriate CRB accreditation, although that would not guarantee they are good teachers.

Edited August 8, 2016 by Janet McNulty
edited to correct job function!

[Lilac]

Probably a bit of a diversion, a friend of mine had a daughter at a dance school where the teacher used to take money for exams which never happened. She used to say that the exam board had no availability , but according to DDs teacher at the time she would send in 4 possible dates and be given one. The thing that most concerned more was the teacher taking money from trusting parents on their children's behalf and then no exams. My friend eventually got wise to it when she rang the board directly when some exams had actually happened, and no results received. The board had received no payment hence withholding the results, Thankfully my friend moved her daughter soon after. Don't know how people can do this, thankfully the school is now closed.

[Jan McNulty]

That is appalling Lilac.  Presumably the owner of that school could also have been charged with fraud if anyone had taken it forward.

[Lilac]

Yes I always thought so, or exposed in the local paper at least. I felt it really disadvantaged kids like my friends daughter as they were so behind with grade work. When she finally moved and did exams she never did all that well, I think generally you are best working through the levels.

[Moomin]

A DBS (formerly CRB) check relates to your police records, the different levels go in to different depths but the full disclosure is pretty far reaching. Obviously it only shows if you have been questioned or convicted though so its no guarantee! I thought the rules had been relaxed a few years ago and it was no longer a requirement for working with children (it covers vulnerable adults as well, although that's probably irrelevant here!). I think the public sector insist on them but I'm not sure whether it's a requirement for the private sector any more. Short of seeing the certificate I'm not sure there is any register you can check. Also, you would need to ask how often they are renewed

[Katymac]

You pay a fee every year to maintain your DBS as up to date - employers can check this

[Moomin]

thats optional though, unless your specific employer requires it, it's not a legal requirement

[Anna C]

Probably a bit of a diversion, a friend of mine had a daughter at a dance school where the teacher used to take money for exams which never happened. She used to say that the exam board had no availability , but according to DDs teacher at the time she would send in 4 possible dates and be given one. The thing that most concerned more was the teacher taking money from trusting parents on their children's behalf and then no exams. My friend eventually got wise to it when she rang the board directly when some exams had actually happened, and no results received. The board had received no payment hence withholding the results, Thankfully my friend moved her daughter soon after. Don't know how people can do this, thankfully the school is now closed.

Goodness me, that is shocking. Interestingly, there are even regulations around exam fee collection, certainly for RAD exams. Schools shouldn't ask for entry fees too far ahead of the exams, and the exam fees should apparently be kept in a separate, protected bank account (just like accommodation damage deposits). I suppose it is to prevent schools demanding entry fees in advance then "lending" themselves the money to be spent elsewhere.

[alison]

Not that it has got much to do with dance school fraud but I know from personal experience  that when some contractors were applying for contracts to implement systems for my employer (a government department) they did not have the staff to man them and only recruited when awarded the contract.  I can see their point because they could not necessarily as a company afford that many staff if they did not have the work.  It could mean that perhaps the best candidates were not available.

 

Janet, don't start me off on tendering!  What's well-known in my part of the industry is that some companies will tender for contracts, having put together a portfolio of highly-qualified subcontractors whom they undertake to use.  Once they have won the contract, though, either the subcontractors may not be sufficiently available, or in the case of the more unscrupulous companies the promised subcontractors may simply be bypassed completely in favour of cheaper ones, regardless of contractual obligations and undertakings.

[Spacy]

I find this very interesting regarding exam fees. My daughters vocational school collected money for Advanced 1 Rad classes extra to curriculum, we also had to pay the £130 exam entry payment. We paid this in the November 2015 and were told that the exam was to be in the spring of 2016, date to be confirmed. The school then decided that they had not finished the course in the spring and every one on the course would now have take their exams in the Autumn term.

My daughter has left the school now, but they are refusing to give the exam entry payment back.

I wonder if that money has been kept separately....in a secure account.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

I think it's only a reccomendation from the RAD not an absolute rule.

 

But still that's awful & adds to the catalogue of financial incidents mentioned in this thread.

Edited August 9, 2016 by Anna C
Edited for clarity with permission of the OP

[Tulip]

It is a legal requirement by Ofsted that everyone who works with children and vulnerable adults must be DBS checked.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

But part time dance schools & schools that are full time only for over 16s are not required to be OFSTED registered.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

So OFSTED relates only to nurseries, childminders who care for children under 8 years old & full time academic schools up to & including year 11 only. Full time Private schools who are ISI registered instead have to be inspected by OFSTED if they have boarding facilities.

 

Schools that have DAda funding are also included.

Edited August 8, 2016 by Picturesinthefirelight

[Anna C]

This is from the RAD's "Examination information and rules" document:

 

"As the Applicant is acting as the agent or trustee of the parent / candidate for examination fees received, the Academy recommends that these fees should not be paid into the general bank account of the Applicant or School. All fees should be paid into an exam fee escrow account and identified in all accounts records as examination entry fees received on behalf of the named candidate or parent. The objective of this guideline is to protect money that is the property of candidates or parents and which is not the property of the School."

[Anna C]

So OFSTED relates only to nurseries, childminders who care for children under 8 years old & full time academic schools up to & including year 11 only. Full time Private schools who are ISI registered instead have to be inspected by OFSTED if they have boarding facilities.

Schools that have DAda funding are also included.

And inspection by QAA (covering higher education and universities) seems to be voluntary:

 

"Can I raise concerns about a private or alternative higher education provider?

We can investigate private or alternative higher education providers which have applied to QAA for educational oversight, applied to QAA for Reviews for Specific Course Designation or those which provide higher education programmes validated by a UK university. If in doubt, please contact us."

 

So if an institution has not applied for educational oversight the QAA seems powerless.

[taxi4ballet]

This is from the RAD's "Examination information and rules" document:

 

"As the Applicant is acting as the agent or trustee of the parent / candidate for examination fees received, the Academy recommends that these fees should not be paid into the general bank account of the Applicant or School. All fees should be paid into an exam fee escrow account and identified in all accounts records as examination entry fees received on behalf of the named candidate or parent. The objective of this guideline is to protect money that is the property of candidates or parents and which is not the property of the School."

The dance schools where dd has taken her RAD exams have always asked for cheques to be payable to the RAD, which seems a sensible option.

[Anna C]

The dance schools where dd has taken her RAD exams have always asked for cheques to be payable to the RAD, which seems a sensible option.

That is a good option. I think Schools can choose whether to submit individual cheques all payable to RAD, or one cheque from the school. Whichever option they choose though, the key point is that the money remains the property of the candidate/parent until exam entry has been confirmed and paid to the RAD.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

I wonder if that's a recent change.

 

Years ago for example when RAD first set up their associate classes they would not allow me as a parent to write a cheque for the fees. Dds then ballet teacher had to hunt out her cheque book to specially write one for us which caused issues when she went on a waiting list.

 

In later terms they actually sent info to me direct & encouraged parents to pay direct.

[Anna C]

I think this is probably the most important thread I've ever read on this Forum - and I've read a lot over the past couple of years!

 

I happily admit to knowing nothing at all about ballet or dance of any sort and, in the absence of any guidance from our local dance school relating to vocational training, I have spent many hours reading anything on this Forum relating to training establishments. All advice has been extremely gratefully received and our DD has now experienced summer schools, master classes and now vocational training is about to start.

 

However, I admit that I never knew I should be checking if a college had a CDET logo on their website relating to their full-time training (not just for associate courses) or to look for any information produced by places such as the ISTD. I will definitely be passing on this information to other parents who have DC auditioning in the future.

 

Finally, I see some training places have a SQA logo too (including some not based in Scotland) - is this something we should be investigating too?

In relation to your last sentence, then it depends what you mean by "investigating"? If it's to check that it's acceptable for an English institution to be accredited by the SQA, then yes, it is. It just means that they are offering a qualification examined by the SQA as opposed to another examination board. In the same way, Ballet West - based in Scotland - offer a Degree accredited by the University of Northumbria.

[Hull]

Thanks very much for this Anna C.

 

After finding out that information could be found on the CDET website about particular institutions, I was wondering if SQA and other such bodies also had this facility. It's just so hard knowing what it all really means.

 

There is so much work involved already in preparing for auditions - now there's even more to do!

[drdance]

That is a good option. I think Schools can choose whether to submit individual cheques all payable to RAD, or one cheque from the school. Whichever option they choose though, the key point is that the money remains the property of the candidate/parent until exam entry has been confirmed and paid to the RAD.

I'm pretty sure that for my most recent set of RAD exams the payment had to come from the school as one lump sum. It's all well and good saying put the exam fees in a different bank account, but a lot of teachers need to add on a small amount to cover hall hire, pianists fees, refreshments for the examiner, pianist, music operator etc. I can imagine parents would want to split that payment up? I know mine would rather it was all one payment. Also, business bank accounts usually have fees. To have an exam fee account (which will potentially sit empty for 3/4 of the year) is yet another expense for the teachers!

[Anna C]

I'm pretty sure that for my most recent set of RAD exams the payment had to come from the school as one lump sum. It's all well and good saying put the exam fees in a different bank account, but a lot of teachers need to add on a small amount to cover hall hire, pianists fees, refreshments for the examiner, pianist, music operator etc. I can imagine parents would want to split that payment up? I know mine would rather it was all one payment. Also, business bank accounts usually have fees. To have an exam fee account (which will potentially sit empty for 3/4 of the year) is yet another expense for the teachers!

Agreed. Hence the guidelines from the RAD are just that - guidelines and recommendations. It also depends - again - whether we're talking about a small/part-time/pre-vocational school, or a full-time school with a large faculty and several year-groups. And then whether the school provides boarding/accommodation because then ideally they would certainly need more than one business account - a protected one for accommodation deposits, perhaps another for wages, and so on.

 

But the main point of those RAD recommendations is that until the exam entry fee is paid by the school to the RAD, that amount of money (e.g. £130 for RAD Adv 1) remains the legal property of the parent/candidate - not the school. So although the school may legally be allowed to hold onto the added fees for hall hire/pianist, they are not permitted to withold the actual exam fee if it has not been paid to the RAD/if the student has not in fact been entered in the exam, which I think was what Lilac mentioned.

[prancerdancer]

It appears to me reading through this thread that every parent of an auditioning child needs to investigate the place they are sending their child to. If Ofsted inspects the school you would read the Ofsted reports, so if Ofsted don't I would think that it is necessary to establish who does and contact them directly. If no one over sees the school and the local Education authority state categorically that they are not aware of the school, then your child is going to a 'company' not a school or a college.

You must then pick up the phone and ring trading standards and ask for advice and explain that you thought they were a school, you know under 18 s must attend further education so why are they not inspected by any body.

If every parent does this check then the con artistes like this chap can't hide behind the logo of an establishment they are not accredited to.

 

Scary but necessary before more children get hurt and more parents become victims of fraud.

 

I've rung trading standards and they were very informatative so I hope other people do the same

[Lisa O`Brien]

A DBS (formerly CRB) check relates to your police records, the different levels go in to different depths but the full disclosure is pretty far reaching. Obviously it only shows if you have been questioned or convicted though so its no guarantee! I thought the rules had been relaxed a few years ago and it was no longer a requirement for working with children (it covers vulnerable adults as well, although that's probably irrelevant here!). I think the public sector insist on them but I'm not sure whether it's a requirement for the private sector any more. Short of seeing the certificate I'm not sure there is any register you can check. Also, you would need to ask how often they are renewed

My son has to have an annual Enhanced Disclosure Check for his college course, where he could be on work placement with the elderly, disabled, children or other vulnerable groups. There was a mix up at the start of the second year of his last Health and Social Care course. The certificate never arrived. His placement at a Nursery with 3 and 4 year olds was only a few weeks away. No-one knew why it had not turned up. He knew the manager of the nursery very well, as she had been a classroom assistant at Sean's primary school. She took a massive risk and let Sean do a 3 week placement at her business anyway. If a Social Worker had made an unannounced visit and Sean had been in that day working with 20 3 and 4 year olds without his Enchanced Disclosure Certificate it would have had major consequences for her. Thankfully no-one turned up. Months later it had still not arrived and he was due to do his second placement in an old people's home. After ringing AccessNI up, who conduct the search, it was revealed they sent the certificate out to house number 2. We live at number 21. They explained they cannot send out another certificate, and advised him to ask at house number 2 if they still have it. Luckily the woman who lives there is a classroom assistant and has to have her own Enhanced Disclosure Certificate updated every year, knew what it was straight away and had sent it back in the post to them. I was so relieved when this years one turned up at our address with the correct details and address on it.The house where the other one was originally sent was the address where my pervy neighbour lives. Which doesn't bear thinking about,really. They couldn't have sent it out to someone more unsuitable.

Edited August 15, 2016 by Lisa O`Brien

[Tulip]

Hi Lisa the nursery would have been fine as long as your son was never left unsupervised with children. It's not best practice to not hold a DBS for a studen, but they can be awaiting one and be fully supervised.

[Lisa O`Brien]

Hi Lisa the nursery would have been fine as long as your son was never left unsupervised with children. It's not best practice to not hold a DBS for a studen, but they can be awaiting one and be fully supervised.

Oh I didn't know that Tulip, thanks. No, I don't think ,because they are students ,they are allowed to be left unsupervised, whatever the age group of people they are on placement with,including the elderly.