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hoglett

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Okay so DD was told today that she doesn't have the ideal physique for Classical ballet. Now I know that comment alone could open up a huge can of worms but I've read up a lot about this on this forum and I have my own opinions. What I'm asking really is if she isn't destined to be a classical dancer, what options/ path should she be aiming at. Are all associate programmes aimed at classical ballet? Which schools /dance programmes should I be looking at? Thank you, you're all so knowledgeable. She's 12.

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It depends what aspects of physique this person was referring to. Secondly if this is the opinion of one person only then perhaps don't make any snap decisions!

 

It is true that elements of physique can restrict the ability to perform classical ballet to advanced levels (eg lack of mobility in hips, spine and ankles) and no amount of training will improve these. However the chances are that restriction in these joints would also make a career in other dance forms harder too - not impossible, but challenging.

 

If however the comments were about proportions/shape/size then do a search of this forum for starters where many many posts refer to this issue; then look further afield at professional dancers such as Misty Copeland!

 

But to answer your question - lots of associate programmes have a ballet element, some are purely classical, some emphasize the classical more than others but have jazz/conditioning as optional extras and some are more focused on all - rounders. CAT schemes and Chantry Dance Company have more contemporary based courses and there's also a jazz/commercial programme in the north midlands.

 

Ballet is important for any dancer. Contemporary dancers are all trained to advanced levels in ballet. Commercial dancers may get away without doing ballet but if they are trained at any of the major colleges in the UK I'm pretty sure they'll have had to do ballet (someone please correct me if I'm wrong!).

Edited by drdance
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My DD was told several years ago she wasn't classical ballet material.She was devastated but She struggled on at her dance school because she loved dancing and learnt to ignore all the negativity. After the summer holidays we return to classes as normal except she simply couldn't cope with being treated so badly. I had been saying for a while let's look at changing schools but she didn't want to up until that day. I took some advice from m a friend who is a teacher and the next day she changed schools. Her current teachers have said the complete opposite she is naturally classical ballet and contemporary. Physically she isn't your classical ballet dancer but that's simply because she isn't very tall.

 

The change in school gave her access to both contemporary, commercial and various other classes plus ballet, tap and modern, which she already did.

 

My advise would be to get advise from others not just one teacher plus as hard as it is if possible look at some other schools.

This all happened around the age of 11/12 and she moved schools aged 13.

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Hoglett this must all be very upsetting for you both. Could I ask who made the comment? Regular teacher? SS teacher?

 

As the others say ballet is needed by all dancers so she should do it anyway if she loves it. Does your dd want dance as a career or hobby? In our experience BBO ballet scholars are not fixated on physique and the training is excellent. Possibly also Ceccheti associates up north?

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I'd be thinking "Classical ballet material for what?"

 

Probably only about 2% to 5% of those who start the study of ballet become professional ballet dancers. But that doesn't mean that the other 98% can't keep dancing! As others have said, there is a lot of other dancing work out there. But what about using the deep learning in dance to work as a PE teacher - the right sort who wants to encourage all children to learn about the joys of purposeful movement, not the type of PE teacher most of us suffered under. Who only noticed you if you were an ace netball player. (I'm not projecting, oh no no no!)

 

Or a fitness trainer? Or a specialist physiotherapist? Or a dance educator? Or an occupational health practitioner?

 

I'm still dancing in my mid-fifties. It is an art which keeps one young & moving. And on the "other" ballet message board, there are lots of members who discovered ballet as adults, and say they wish they had been allowed to study ballet as a child.

 

The other thing is for your daughter to explore other dance forms: commercial dance, modern/contemporary dance, physical theatre, and so on. 

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Thank you all for your comments. Yes Sarahw it was very upsetting. Was somebody with credentials who came recommended and I asked them to give an independent assessment of strengths and weaknesses so that DD had some things to work on over the summer. ..so it is definitely a snapshot. There were absolutely no positives at all which is in total contrast to what school are telling DD. Some of the comments were useful as they're more about correcting bad habits but other than that it was depressing and almost wish I hadn't bothered. DD had great attitude and won't be put off though (after initial tears)so that's good. Definitely wants to dance as a career Sarahw. Thanks for your comments Kate, dance teacher is definitely her plan b. Dr dance. ..thank you and DDtaxi thanks for sharing your story. I feel that after asking for an assessment I shouldn't be totally dismissive but I would have liked more positives. Second and final lesson today so I'm sending DD in with her notebook and she's going to ask for specific exercises / techniques to work on for everything that was mentioned yesterday. Thanks again...don't know what I would do without you all.

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That's a really good idea re. the notebook, hoglett. Was it a private 1:1 lesson/assessment, and if so, are you allowed to watch?

 

If it were my daughter I would ask exactly what aspects of the physique are "not suitable". If there appear to be physical impingements - e.g. lack of flexibility in hips or ankles - then it would be well worth getting a second opinion from an experienced Dance Physio to determine whether the issue is an actual joint flexibility issue OR lack of strength and knowledge about engaging the correct muscles.

 

If the teacher thinks that the actual body proportions are not suitable then that is trickier. However at 12 your dd may still have a LOT of growing to do so I certainly wouldn't let one opinion put your dd off ballet.

 

The main thing is to try to pin the teacher down to specifics so that you have somewhere to go from here.

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Anna...thank you so much. ..you're absolutely right, we need to leave today with specifics that we (my DD ) can work on. It was a private and I think I'll ask if I can watch today. I'm assuming she meant body proportions because she then went on to talk about short torso and long legs. It was all very negative. ..'I can see why Elmhurst didn't want her.' Not the way to give feedback in my opinion. I think a dance physio is perhaps the next step. Thank you for your comments.

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Hoglett - does your dd want to be a ballet dancer or does she want to be a dancer?

 

Very very early on my dd knew she was never going to be a ballerina but that there was a chance if she overcame some physical difficulties that she could dance at a high level.

 

I'm now doubting that she has what it takes to make a career out of performing. But it isn't stopping her from doing the best she can.

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 I'm assuming she meant body proportions because she then went on to talk about short torso and long legs. 

 

That seems very old fashioned. There was a time when all companies had a corps full of clones, but that’s really not the case any more. In the last 6 months I have been lucky enough to see both Northern Ballet and Matthew Bourne and noticed that both companies employ a fair range of shapes and sizes. All of the dancers were fantastically talented and great to watch though! 

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Anna...thank you so much. ..you're absolutely right, we need to leave today with specifics that we (my DD ) can work on. It was a private and I think I'll ask if I can watch today. I'm assuming she meant body proportions because she then went on to talk about short torso and long legs. It was all very negative. ..'I can see why Elmhurst didn't want her.' Not the way to give feedback in my opinion. I think a dance physio is perhaps the next step. Thank you for your comments.

Best of luck, hoglett. I hope you get to watch today. If you're paying for the lesson then you should certainly be allowed to watch, and to ask questions at the end.

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Hoglett - does your dd want to be a ballet dancer or does she want to be a dancer?

 

 

Very very early on my dd knew she was never going to be a ballerina but that there was a chance if she overcame some physical difficulties that she could dance at a high level.

 

I'm now doubting that she has what it takes to make a career out of performing. But it isn't stopping her from doing the best she can.

Hi ,she wants to be a ballet dancer first and foremost but she/we are realistic about the chances of making it big. We joke that the reality is she'll be working in a coffee shop and occasionally get a part with some company. She is also talented at singing,musical theatre ,contemporary. ..I suppose whilst realising it's good to be an all rounder,I wanted to focus money /energy on one thing.

 

Edited by Hoglett to correct typos.

Edited by hoglett
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My DD was determined that she wanted to be a ballet dancer at 12.  Classical ballet was her first love.  However as she grew it became obvious that she didn't have the body shape for classical ballet (short legs & long body) however she still wanted to dance. 
She is now 16 and is on the CAT programme at Northern School of Contemporary Dance going into her third year.  She love's the style - more freedom - and the ability to choreograph etc.  She still does 2 ballet classes a week, 1 with NSCD (1.5 hours) and one with her local dance school (1.5 hours)  and also a tap class  and modern jazz class as well as the CAT programme.   I have never seen her so happy with her dancing and she is looking forward to auditioning for contemporary schools at 18.  Sometimes when a door closes a window opens up very, very wide.

 

I appreciate that it might not be exactly what she wants now, but then not every little girl who dreams of being a ballerina is going to end up a ballerina.  Sometimes a healthy shot of realism helps them decide what they really want.

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Thank you so much for all of your help. Huddsballetmum. ..that's great to hear. I'm really pleased it's working out for your daughter. Whilst I obviously didn't want my DD to get upset I do think that on the whole it has been good for her to hear some of the comments as it's given her a shake up.

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Thank you so much for all of your help. Huddsballetmum. ..that's great to hear. I'm really pleased it's working out for your daughter. Whilst I obviously didn't want my DD to get upset I do think that on the whole it has been good for her to hear some of the comments as it's given her a shake up.

I do appreciate exactly what you are going through.  It's awful to hear that your daughter is unlikely to fulfil their burning ambition/dreams.  At 12 its devastating, but they do get over it and move on.  She might not see it now, but something much more positive might come out of it in the end.

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My dd was told last September ( age 14yrs) that she had a 'sporty body' and not a 'classical body' and that she would be better off aiming for more "neo-classical" vocational schools , like Bejart ( in Lausanne), her teachers also told her she was a bit 'soft' she needed to attack more in her dancing and that she lacked in musicality. She was upset but as we had 6 months before auditions (we are in France, so some vocational schools start at 14/15yrs) I told her just to carry on and work hard and what would be, would be. 

She worked very hard on her technique and started learning not to work with her thighs all the time, secondly we worked out she was lactose intolerant and so tweaked her diet , and thirdly after 4 months I paid a private, vocational school teacher to give her a private lesson to get a second opinion .

With a growth spurt her legs have lengthened over the last year and with the change in technique their muscle definition has changed. Her private lesson teacher told me she was not slow, or lacking in 'attack' but was just being careful how she placed herself and that it would get better as her confidence grew and she needs to learn to breathe!

Finally, after 3 auditions this spring, she got accepted into 2 schools, the one she has chosen, took 5 girls out of 95 girls auditioning aged 15-17yrs. 

Please don't give up, take a day at a time, there are many possibilities to dance if she really wants to

Sam x

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Hoglett it is very difficult to know where to turn sometimes - unless you danced yourself it can be so confusing. You seem to have a sensible attitude - you have to 'triage' the information you are given and seek the path that seems best for your dd. Ballet lessons will never be wasted if she enjoys them even if eventually another course is followed.

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Anna is right, at 12 no-one can tell whether your daughter's shape and proportions - if that's what caused the teacher to say that she doesn't have the ideal physique for classical ballet - are now set or whether they may alter through puberty. We have seen one student transform from a waif-like gazelle with the preferred 'ideal' short body and long frail-looking legs at 12 to an 18 year old who is athletic-looking, broad-shouldered, long-bodied as well as long-legged and has developed well-muscled thighs; this is clearly due to genetics as she has always been careful if not verging on obsessive about a good diet and has only ever danced (ballet - associate scheme, RAD Adv 2 with a very high distinction and very high level contemporary dance) as exercise, so the muscle development isn't due to sports etc.

 

Although physique often seems set in stone at 11 or 12, this isn't always the case. No-one has a crystal ball and your DD may develop the preferred classical ballet shape or she may not - and who knows what proportions may be preferred in the future? Additionally the teacher may have an exaggerated view of the physique 'requirements' - not all dancers even in the top ballet companies have the very short body/very long legs combination!

 

Sending hugs to both of you. No-one wants their child to be upset x

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At 12 there is a long way to go and I really wouldn't let anyone put you off as there are still so many bodily changes yet to come! And expectations regarding physique proportions seem to be relaxing a bit. Even Royal Ballet seems to have taken on a few shorter legged, longer bodied stockier girls recently under O' Hare's directorship, so there's hope for all.

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My ex dd was small and long legged, long neck, small head etc. However she was long waisted and our very experienced dance school principal told me that she wasn't professional ballet material. She is now in her mid twenties, tall, very slender and incredibly she is now short waisted. Puberty is a real game changer.

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Sorry to hear the feedback was delivered the way it was :( seems odd that it was so contrasting to what you had heard from dance school though. But in any event, tact and sensitivity costs nothing :)

 

my DD at age 10 sobbed after auditions for Tring classical course as the girls she knew who got offered places alongside the people she watched on the day, she seemed to recognise herself that her body wasn't like theirs in various ways. She just knew without anyone saying anything. I couldn't relate to it as saw, with my untrained eye, that other people (who I thought had similar body type to her) would have had places if funding wasn't an issue.

 

She was pretty sad when she realised this but two years later she is still loving her ballet more than ever and just wants to be the best she can be.

 

She's had a big growth spurt since then and her body looks very different now although still quite slim/athletic rather than slim/long and wirey (if that makes sense)

 

There a good thread on here that's just recently been bumped called "where does it all lead?" And for me the responses on that thread helped us enormously put into context of vocational ballet schools being just one route to employment :)

 

Good luck and hope you can get some specifics as has been suggested

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Anna...thank you so much. ..you're absolutely right, we need to leave today with specifics that we (my DD ) can work on. It was a private and I think I'll ask if I can watch today. I'm assuming she meant body proportions because she then went on to talk about short torso and long legs. It was all very negative. ..'I can see why Elmhurst didn't want her.' Not the way to give feedback in my opinion. I think a dance physio is perhaps the next step. Thank you for your comments.

Hoglett, did you get to watch on day 2? Was it any more constructive?

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At 12 there is a long way to go and I really wouldn't let anyone put you off as there are still so many bodily changes yet to come! And expectations regarding physique proportions seem to be relaxing a bit. Even Royal Ballet seems to have taken on a few shorter legged, longer bodied stockier girls recently under O' Hare's directorship, so there's hope for all.

Please don't think I'm name dropping here but, a few weeks ago I asked Kevin O'Hare about the reputation the RB had of only taking on board dancers with "there" type of body. He assured me that recently they were taking dancers on with all shapes and sizes. I know only time will tell whether this trend continues, as I have no reason whatsoever to question his statement.

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Hoglett, did you get to watch on day 2? Was it any more constructive?

 

Yes I did and yes it was more constructive. DD received a lot more positive comments throughout but I was still not thrilled with some comments made. For example - I had to ask for an opinion on her pointe work and I was told. ..'Much stronger than I thought after seeing her yesterday .'. Think there was a compliment in there! It hasn't put DD off and I think she's come away with a few bad habits highlighted. It's all ended quite well but with such negative comments,it could have gone so differently. I know that we have to be realistic and there's no point saying somebody is fabulous if they're not but frankly some of the comments were so negative and off putting they could have been very detrimental.

 

Thanks for your interest.

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Please don't think I'm name dropping here but, a few weeks ago I asked Kevin O'Hare about the reputation the RB had of only taking on board dancers with "there" type of body. He assured me that recently they were taking dancers on with all shapes and sizes. I know only time will tell whether this trend continues, as I have no reason whatsoever to question his statement.

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Vonrothbert,thanks for that. ..that's backed up by what I saw at EYB. A beautiful dancer is starting at White Lodge and she's not what you would expect RB to go for in terms of physique. Somebody mentioned in an earlier post that the teacher who made the comment about my DD seemed a little out of date and i think I agree. Thanks everybody for your comments.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi Hoglett whilst i haven't had time to read everything in depth please rest assured that feedback should be handled sensitively and never take one persons word for it on your daughters chances of success classically. I myself was told on many occasions (whilst at vocational school) that i was too short, too fat, soft muscle tone, go work in tesco!!! Sheer determination and an intelligence for the use of dance science and the many many options of exercises around have meant i have had a very fulfilling career. I learnt early on to accept that i needed to swim alongside my daily ballet to look the same as others who were 'born that way"!!! many natural classical bodies do not have the mental capacity to withstand the profession or apply corrections but none of this is apparent until 16 plus. I didn't grow or dramatically improve until i was 17, came bottom of many assessments but out of my year of 18 of us i, was one of two or three who succeeded. Look at the top ballet companies and there will be some with long bodies or larger hips! When it comes to being a true dancer these things done always matter if they have that something special. Unfortunately its only post 16 that the 'dancers' get to show these aspects at auditions.

 

I recently had a private student who has since proved that hard work pays off. I have always liked to think that anything is possible and she has proved this ten fold. One yr ago she arrived with bent legs, dodgy feet and many bad habits and not much vocal - i applied every ounce of knowledge i had and all the exercises .....she took these on board and worked daily. In sept she will Iive her dream of attending good vocational school.

 

At this young age the body changes so much, dreams should be chased and teachers should inspire not destroy. And many things are possible with the combined use of determination and intelligence.

 

For those looking at other art forms - Ballet is always looked at first! even if they audition for a street dance course. Find a teacher who keeps the fun and passion alive and your young dancers will thrive xx

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Hi Hoglett whilst i haven't had time to read everything in depth please rest assured that feedback should be handled sensitively and never take one persons word for it on your daughters chances of success classically. I myself was told on many occasions (whilst at vocational school) that i was too short, too fat, soft muscle tone, go work in tesco!!! Sheer determination and an intelligence for the use of dance science and the many many options of exercises around have meant i have had a very fulfilling career. I learnt early on to accept that i needed to swim alongside my daily ballet to look the same as others who were 'born that way"!!! many natural classical bodies do not have the mental capacity to withstand the profession or apply corrections but none of this is apparent until 16 plus. I didn't grow or dramatically improve until i was 17, came bottom of many assessments but out of my year of 18 of us i, was one of two or three who succeeded. Look at the top ballet companies and there will be some with long bodies or larger hips! When it comes to being a true dancer these things done always matter if they have that something special. Unfortunately its only post 16 that the 'dancers' get to show these aspects at auditions.

 

I recently had a private student who has since proved that hard work pays off. I have always liked to think that anything is possible and she has proved this ten fold. One yr ago she arrived with bent legs, dodgy feet and many bad habits and not much vocal - i applied every ounce of knowledge i had and all the exercises .....she took these on board and worked daily. In sept she will Iive her dream of attending good vocational school.

 

At this young age the body changes so much, dreams should be chased and teachers should inspire not destroy. And many things are possible with the combined use of determination and intelligence.

 

For those looking at other art forms - Ballet is always looked at first! even if they audition for a street dance course. Find a teacher who keeps the fun and passion alive and your young dancers will thrive xx

 

This post should be framed and put on every studio wall.

 

Edited to add: drdance, I see you had the same idea! :)

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