Jan McNulty Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 Before the EU existed, the Royal Ballet was exclusively for British dancers and was still considered a world class company and anyone who couldn't get in to a British company went to Europe, mainly Germany and France, where there were loads of companies. Having said that, I should note that I was accepted for Zurich, with the promise that a contract or two were due to become available at Christmas, but was then told that they had had to take 2 Swiss girls first. So I guess it's as broad as it's long. Incidentally, a former student of mine was given a contract for Estonia (he has dual French/Israeli citizenship) but his then fiancee (now his wife) only had Israeli citizenship and she was still accepted without any hassle. They stayed for two years. I thought the RB was "British and Commonwealth" before the EU. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldenlily17 Posted May 31, 2016 Author Share Posted May 31, 2016 I lived in Paris for three years where I worked as a journalist and I saw no evidence of this anxiety over positive descrimination, or any dropping off at the box office because of the quality of dance which the Paris Opera Ballet presented as a company of almost entirely French dancers. In fact there is a far larger repertoire there for dancers which is very fulfilling. Major works by Mats Ek for example will be regularly performed. For the French it is obvious that the school's primary mission is to train French citizens and employ them in the company because French tax payers fund it. They don't see it as their function to train dancers from all over the world and then place them in their companies. Their attitude is that they take great pride in the nurturing of their dancers through those long years of training and they didn't want to lose them. The result is a distinctive style, comparable with what was once recognised as the 'English' style. The same attitude prevails in Denmark. As far as the USA is concerned, it is a huge market and there are plenty of talented dancers, but it is very tough to get employment unless you are a 'star' as it has to be proven that an American citizen couldn't do the job as well in order to get the papers. Obviously companies have to employ the most capable principals, but I do think that there should be a duty to give graduating students more places within the corps of their feeder company to start them off with their first job, at the least. There seems to be so little confidence in our system of selection and training compared to some other countries. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarahw Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 I agree with the French - I think we should positively discriminate personally 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 I lived in Paris for three years where I worked as a journalist and I saw no evidence of this anxiety over positive descrimination, or any dropping off at the box office because of the quality of dance which the Paris Opera Ballet presented as a company of almost entirely French dancers. In fact there is a far larger repertoire there for dancers which is very fulfilling. Major works by Mats Ek for example will be regularly performed. For the French it is obvious that the school's primary mission is to train French citizens and employ them in the company because French tax payers fund it. They don't see it as their function to train dancers from all over the world and then place them in their companies. Their attitude is that they take great pride in the nurturing of their dancers through those long years of training and they didn't want to lose them. The result is a distinctive style, comparable with what was once recognised as the 'English' style. The same attitude prevails in Denmark. As far as the USA is concerned, it is a huge market and there are plenty of talented dancers, but it is very tough to get employment unless you are a 'star' as it has to be proven that an American citizen couldn't do the job as well in order to get the papers. Obviously companies have to employ the most capable principals, but I do think that there should be a duty to give graduating students more places within the corps of their feeder company to start them off with their first job, at the least. There seems to be so little confidence in our system of selection and training compared to some other countries. But, being realistic, would you accept that far more students graduate than there are classical jobs for in the UK. And surely that must be the same in France and anywhere else. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 (edited) Actually the RB very rarely takes corps dancers from anywhere other than the RBS. Sometimes, RBS graduates dance elsewhere for a year or two before they join the RB, presumably because a vacancy has come up. However, as the upper school has many overseas students the dancers who join the company are not always British. Edited May 31, 2016 by aileen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldenlily17 Posted May 31, 2016 Author Share Posted May 31, 2016 Alison, are you able to elaborate on the point about a Brexit not allowing protectionism? This is key. Some countries are having it both ways. They are in Europe with their citizens enjoying free movement to train and work in other countries, such as the UK, and operating protectionism within their own system. In France, again, you have to have been through the French exam system to get into the Paris Opera Ballet school. The only exceptions are the odd student who has won a major international competition. That is protectionism, and there isn't anyone prepared to enforce reciprocity anyway. If it isn't working as well as it should for us, is that not an argument in support of 'a degree' of protectionism for UK students within Europe? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarahw Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 Of course we train too many dancers and protectionism won't change that but it would improve access to jobs for our Graduates. Then we can watch British dancers in the UK and appreciate other nationalities dancing when they tour or we go abroad. I'm playing devil's advocate to a degree!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldenlily17 Posted May 31, 2016 Author Share Posted May 31, 2016 In response to Janet, yes of course I accept that there are more classical dancers graduating than jobs for them to have, It is a problem in the industry globally. But is it right that we should be rejecting so many young British dancers along the way and cherry-picking dancers from overseas to replace them?and then privileging those foreign dancers? Does it indicate a crisis of confidence in our junior training? I think there are moral questions here. I am drawn back to the article Luke Jennings wrote about his in 2012. It is on Facebook 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A frog Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 The RBS is pretty open in its aim to recruit the best students from all around the world, from a very remote perspective based on articles and comments here or there, it seems both a way to have a claim of having trained as many great dancers as possible, and because non-EU students pay much higher fees. The Paris school is heavily subsidised, and while I can't find the info, I'm guessing it is free (as all state schools in France are) for students, giving them no incentive to widen the net for recruits. If it's anything like the rest of the French system, it's not exclusionary per se, you just have to have been in from the beginning, whereas RBS has a clean break between the Lower School and the Upper School (also I remember Beatriz Stix-Brunell studied there, so clearly they don't have a French only policy). If I may develop on Alison's point about Switzerland, they have recently had a referendum about ending free movement of people; they found out that implementing it would lead to a breach of the conditions of their access to the Single Market and they therefore can't go through with it. One example I remember was that European funding for universities' research projects would be withdrawn and/or that Swiss universities would no longer be allowed to apply. No-one knows what consequences Brexit should it happen would have, but it is reasonable that if we want to keep access to the single market we would still have to accept free movement of people. Of course none of the Brexit proponents have so far been able to state what the relationship with the EU would be, so trying to figure out what the various conditions would be is currently a waste of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 There are very specific reasons for the POB School having very few foreign dancers, namely, the school does not have full boarding facilities and you have to join the school before your thirteenth birthday. This means that the family or at least one parent of an overseas student would have to relocate unless a local guardian could be found. In the past, the RB was only open to British and Commonwealth citizens and many of the principals were actually not from Britain. Even Margot Fonteyn was born abroad and only had one British parent. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pas de Quatre Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 I worked as a ballet dancer in France both before and after UK joined the EEC as it was then. The only difference I noticed was that I didn't have to go to the Police to have my Carte de Sejour stamped quite so often. Fellow non-French dancers were at various times, other Brits, Belgian, Argentinian, Asian (can't remember which countries), Japanese, American (USA) and Australian. Usually not more than a handful at any given time, we thought there was an unofficial quota implemented by each company. These days there are fewer companies across Europe, and more good schools, many founded in the second half of 20th century. Dance*is*life - I think there was a "foreign students" one year polishing course at RBS, I knew a Venezuelan dancer who had done it, and there were other streams alongside the "Graduate" class, so there were two or three parallel classes. Can you remember this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldenlily17 Posted May 31, 2016 Author Share Posted May 31, 2016 Aileen, sorry to have to contradict you on the subject of Margot Fonteyn. She was actually born in Reigate, Surrey. Her family re-located to Shanghai for a few years when she was about 8 because her father got a job there. Part of her huge appeal to the British public was precisely that she was English. Her real name was Margaret (Peggy) Hookham, but she changed it to a version of her mother's family name which was Fontes. Like Darcey her appeal lay in the fact that she was English, you can read this all over the post-war press - but of a paradox that she changed it really. Interestingly I suspect it is because Darcey is English that we see her life-size photo behind the box office counter at the Opera House. Unfortunately the PR isn't a reflection of the composition of the RB's ballerinas today Lauren Cuthbertson is the only British female principal.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisa O`Brien Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 I worked as a ballet dancer in France both before and after UK joined the EEC as it was then. The only difference I noticed was that I didn't have to go to the Police to have my Carte de Sejour stamped quite so often. Fellow non-French dancers were at various times, other Brits, Belgian, Argentinian, Asian (can't remember which countries), Japanese, American (USA) and Australian. Usually not more than a handful at any given time, we thought there was an unofficial quota implemented by each company. These days there are fewer companies across Europe, and more good schools, many founded in the second half of 20th century. Dance*is*life - I think there was a "foreign students" one year polishing course at RBS, I knew a Venezuelan dancer who had done it, and there were other streams alongside the "Graduate" class, so there were two or three parallel classes. Can you remember this? Carte de Sejour. God, I've not heard of that for years !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 Aileen, sorry to have to contradict you on the subject of Margot Fonteyn. She was actually born in Reigate, Surrey. Her family re-located to Shanghai for a few years when she was about 8 because her father got a job there. Part of her huge appeal to the British public was precisely that she was English. Her real name was Margaret (Peggy) Hookham, but she changed it to a version of her mother's family name which was Fontes. Like Darcey her appeal lay in the fact that she was English, you can read this all over the post-war press - but of a paradox that she changed it really. Interestingly I suspect it is because Darcey is English that we see her life-size photo behind the box office counter at the Opera House. Unfortunately the PR isn't a reflection of the composition of the RB's ballerinas today Lauren Cuthbertson is the only British female principal.. Are we only talking females and RB? A number of dancers are from Commonwealth countries and potentially always would have been employed by RB on graduation. Who knows how Kevin O'Hare will progress the company. He obviously has a budget and was not in post when most of the current principals were employed. We've had several similar discussions over the years - here is one example: http://www.balletcoforum.com/index.php?/topic/11818-where-does-it-all-lead/?hl=graduate There is no easy answer and I would guess that many other parents in many other countries have similar conversations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisa O`Brien Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 Whatever the outcome of the Referendum one thing I think we can all safely say is there are going to be millions of people disappointed by the result, one way or the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangorballetboy Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 Of course. Forgot about Tamara !!! Who was, of course, born in Canada, raised in Spain and now a British citizen. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisa O`Brien Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 Who was, of course, born in Canada, raised in Spain and now a British citizen. Who was, of course, born in Canada, raised in Spain and now a British citizen. Wow,I didn't know that,BBB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisa O`Brien Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 Don't know how it was able to quote you twice ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangorballetboy Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 Unfortunately the PR isn't a reflection of the composition of the RB's ballerinas today Lauren Cuthbertson is the only British female principal.. Depends what you mean by British... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldenlily17 Posted May 31, 2016 Author Share Posted May 31, 2016 The rationale for talking about females is just that it seems to be much more difficult for them to get jobs. And I mentioned the RB because of poing about Fonteyn. Looking back over recent years I can't think of a male classically trained dancer I have come across who hasn't got a job. Even though more boys have been going into ballet there are still fewer of them. Male ballet dancers also seem to be seen as very fashionable and sexy at the moment. Witness the finalists at BBC's Young British Dancer competition last year. Only one girl and she was a Kathak dancer, I seem to remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldenlily17 Posted May 31, 2016 Author Share Posted May 31, 2016 Surely 'British' means having British citizenship. Commonwealth citizens stopped being British 'subjects' in the early 1980s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLOSS Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 (edited) It leaves you wondering why the Lower and Upper School don't appear to be run as a single institution. In any other organisation there would be serious questions asked about what was going on in the lower tier of an organisation which failed to train and develop its students so that they were deemed good enough to progress to the higher tier of the institution concerned. At the present moment it is as if the Lower School is cultivating apples, the Upper School want Pears and grows them but the Company wants citrus fruit. Edited May 31, 2016 by FLOSS 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangorballetboy Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 Surely 'British' means having British citizenship. Commonwealth citizens stopped being British 'subjects' in the early 1980s Then you're wrong in saying Cuthbertson is the only British female principal at the Royal. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alison Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 If I may develop on Alison's point about Switzerland, they have recently had a referendum about ending free movement of people; they found out that implementing it would lead to a breach of the conditions of their access to the Single Market and they therefore can't go through with it. One example I remember was that European funding for universities' research projects would be withdrawn and/or that Swiss universities would no longer be allowed to apply. No-one knows what consequences Brexit should it happen would have, but it is reasonable that if we want to keep access to the single market we would still have to accept free movement of people. Of course none of the Brexit proponents have so far been able to state what the relationship with the EU would be, so trying to figure out what the various conditions would be is currently a waste of time. Thank you, A frog. That was what I meant, but I think you've explained it better than I could have. If we could nudge this back towards the original subject, please? We have various other threads discussing School recruitment policies, the disconnect between LS, US and the Company, and so on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldenlily17 Posted May 31, 2016 Author Share Posted May 31, 2016 Who is the other British female principal at the Royal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 Who is the other British female principal at the Royal? You can be a British citizen without having been born here. I know of a couple of dancers (not necessarily RB) who have become British citizens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tabitha Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 Who is the other British female principal at the Royal? Marianela has British Citizenship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tabitha Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 What I don't understand is why it is so difficult for British dancers to get Visas to work in America on the grounds that you have to prove that no American can do the job, but foreign (non-EU) dancers have no problem getting a visa in the UK as ballet dancers are on the 'shortage occupation list". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 (edited) I suspect that most of the overseas dancers who get visas to dance in the US are male and have trained in the US. I can think of a few overseas female dancers at SFB eg Yuan Yuan Tan, Maria Kochekova, Sylviane Sylvie and Mathilde Frostey and so it is possible for dancers to get visas to work in the US. Edited May 31, 2016 by aileen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 What I don't understand is why it is so difficult for British dancers to get Visas to work in America on the grounds that you have to prove that no American can do the job, but foreign (non-EU) dancers have no problem getting a visa in the UK as ballet dancers are on the 'shortage occupation list". I think you may find that they do have some difficulties. One RBS graduate from Australia was several months late starting at BRB due to visa issues. I know of another dancer in another company who disappeared for a couple of months while sorting out renewal of visa issues. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 I suspect that most of the overseas dancers who get visas to dance in the US are male and have trained in the US. I can think of a few overseas female dancers at SFB eg Yuan Yuan Tan, Maria Kochekova, Sylviane Sylvie and Mathilde Frostey and so it is possible for dancers to get visas to work in the US. Christopher Wheeldon at NYCB too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldenlily17 Posted May 31, 2016 Author Share Posted May 31, 2016 Can you tell us more about the "shortage occupation list" you are referring to Tabitha. This doesn't seem to make sense as we have too many dancers for the available jobs in the UK, as we have discussed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dance*is*life Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 Non EU dancers also have to get special visas. I had to write a letter of recommendation for a dancer who wanted to join the Trocaderos. The only reason they granted him the visa was because he was one of the very few males who are experts in pointe work. America is a huge country with many. many companies, but there are still hundreds of thousands of talented US dancers there who can't get jobs, so they are miserly with their visas. They make it tough to get a tourist visa too! We've had students who have nearly missed summer school because they couldn't get a visa interview in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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