Dance*is*life Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 I can't stand this sort of behaviour. I remember watching a summer school character class in the States when I was on holiday quite some years ago now. The Russian teacher had a class full of beautiful girls and one poor soul couldn't pick up the step. The teacher reduced her to tears by verbally abusing her, shouting at the top of her voice and making her do it again and again. The poor girl couldn't do it better, because she didn't understand what she was meant to do. I was so upset at seeing this I wanted to go in and tell the teacher - Just explain it to her again slowly, so that she gets it! I think after wasting everyone's time for about ten minutes, she eventually did show her the step again and of course the girl was then able to do it properly. The whole incident disturbed me so much at the time and as you can see I have never forgotten it. I felt bad afterwards that I didn't go and complain to the AD or something. The wierd thing was that there were some parents watching and it didn't seem to bother them - as if this was normal practise. I am so glad you are moving your daughter and hope that the incident didn't leave lasting damage. Ballet school should feel as comfortable as a second home to the students not a pressure pot. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulip Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 Well I have just been shocked to the core as my daughter has said many times she has been hit by a dance teacher, usually the old ones. She told me that it is just the dance world. She said she was once hit in the ribs and it did actually hurt, this must have been a reminder to pull her ribs in or something? I know a student can have a tap on the leg etc to remind them which muscles to engage, but not tapped hard enough to actually hurt. Fancy me only just finding this out now after all these years. My daughter just says, that's the way some teachers are. Ask your children if they have ever been tapped hard enough by a teacher that it hurt, I think some of you may get the same kind of shock that I have just had. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiz Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 I had an elderly teacher who I adored. She never smacked anyone but she did have a stick which she used to run across our legs so that we all achieved the same height in battements. It didn't hurt though. It was genuinely a teaching aid. She used it for pointing too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invisiblecircus Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 I am very shocked to read about this :-( Like Fiz, I had a teacher who was famously very very old school. She used to carry a stick around but would never hit anyone with it. She used to hold it against people's backs sometimes to show that they did not have the correct posture. Dance*is*life, your post reminded me of two incidents that happened to me at ballet school. One was when I was getting a correction about something and the teacher asked me to prepare on the right foot. I did it and she started screaming "RIGHT FOOT!" I did it again and she continued "RIGHT FOOT I TOLD YOU! DO IT ON THE RIGHT!" I remember being kind of frozen to the spot and scared to say "This IS my right foot!" Eventually she realised and calmly said "I meant do it on the left..." The other incident happened when I dared to do something that she had just spent time correcting another student on. She spoke very harshly to me, before realising that she had corrected the other student in a language I don't speak (and was not an "official" language of the school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annaliesey Posted December 20, 2015 Author Share Posted December 20, 2015 Dance*is*life that must have made an impression on you This is exactly what's caused DD more distress than anything else .. Being shouted/screamed/ridiculed if she doesn't pick up quickly enough or if she makes mistakes. She doesn't mind too much most of the time when it's someone who equally gives praise where it's due but there are some classes where she says its all negative and she honestly feels like she is singled out when others make mistakes but treated more gently. Several of her teachers have said they are harder on her because she has talent/potential but to be honest they haven't done her any favours as all she has done is withdraw. I'm really cross with myself now for not asking her enough questions and realising what she was dealing with. I thought the object that was waved sbout was just used in a jovial way. The sad thing is she says she is "used to it" or "deserves it" or she's stupid! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annaliesey Posted December 20, 2015 Author Share Posted December 20, 2015 Well I have just been shocked to the core as my daughter has said many times she has been hit by a dance teacher, usually the old ones. She told me that it is just the dance world. She said she was once hit in the ribs and it did actually hurt, this must have been a reminder to pull her ribs in or something? I know a student can have a tap on the leg etc to remind them which muscles to engage, but not tapped hard enough to actually hurt. Fancy me only just finding this out now after all these years. My daughter just says, that's the way some teachers are. Ask your children if they have ever been tapped hard enough by a teacher that it hurt, I think some of you may get the same kind of shock that I have just had. Tulip, sorry to hear this when you say "after all these years" was it long ago? How does she feel now looking back on it? Hope she's ok sadly I think there is more "it's just the dance world" than some of us realise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulip Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 Erm no, it's a continuous thing. She is fine about it and finds it normal. She was surprised that we didn't find it normal and said its usually the old teachers, the good ones I imagine. The good thing is my daughter is very very gentle with children, a softy really, and I know that if she ever taught dance, she would be one of the gentle teachers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pas de Quatre Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 Is this now, when she is an adult, or was it when she was younger, Tulip? I have been around in the ballet world for many years - as a pupil, a professional ballet dancer and a teacher, both in this country and abroad. But I have fortunately never witnessed anyone being struck! It is not normal and shouldn't be tolerated. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulip Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 Younger I think. It just came out in a conversation. It didn't happen at Central. She has never mentioned verbal humiliation though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Picturesinthefirelight Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 It isn't normal although abusers often make out that is is normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulip Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 Touching is fine with permission given, it's important in ballet. Touching that stings or hurts is actually illegal. I know my daughter has not been troubled by any of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Picturesinthefirelight Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 I can understand your daughters attitude because as a child I was struck many times (rapped on the knuckles) by my very elderly piano teacher. I wasn't scarred mentally or physically & regard Her with fondness. But it doesn't make IT right & shouldn't be happening today. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulip Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 It definitely shouldn't be happening. As someone mentioned earlier on in the thread, some older style teachers don't appear to realise that they could be getting themselves into serious trouble, and how they are handling a child, verbally or physically is very wrong. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drdance Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 What saddens me when I hear of any issues of unsafe or unhealthy dance teaching is that a) it is still going on - and that students still think that it's normal, and that it needs to be this way. These students will go on to be the teachers of the future. A lot of us teaching teach in a similar way to how we were trained (or at least will have adopted some of our teachers traits)- especially if we have been successful dancers as a result of the training we received. Teacher training courses go some way to eradicating any of the traits which may be harmful but that assumes every person who teaches dancing has had decent, thorough training (which we sadly know is not the case). If students still perceive these practices as normal, then the cycle will go on. It is worrying (and I'm not a parent!). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melody Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 (edited) I remember reading about how dance teachers these days are having to be really careful about touching students, partly because of the perception of corporal punishment and partly because of the possibility of it being misconstrued as sexual assault, and that it's much harder to explain a problem verbally than to use hands-on correction but that's sort of how things are going. So I can sort of see a teacher deciding to go hands-on with corrections if it's the easiest way to make a student do something right, and even using a stick or something to avoid the personal hands-on thing which people seem to be so sensitive about. But I'm just wondering how often a hands-on correction would involve a student's bottom rather than legs or arms; whacking a kid across the bum, especially so hard that it leaves marks, is nothing but corporal punishment. And using hands-on correction as an excuse to mete out corporal punishment is going to make it harder for other teachers to use genuine hands-on correction, which would be a shame. If this teacher isn't the director of the school, the director should know what's going on, and also explain why this teacher started bringing the implement back into class when there had obviously been previous problems. Seriously - "this is dance training so we can spank our pupils"? Good grief. Edited December 20, 2015 by Melody 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisa O`Brien Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 If my child had been assaulted I wouldn`t just contact the NSPCC. I`d contact the police. End of. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P1P Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 Absolutely Lisa, I'd be calling the Police too. The NSPCC have no power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chloe123 Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 The NSPCC does have statutory powers to intervene on behalf of children - it also has an advice line so it is a good first port of call if you are unsure what to do about a child protection issue. I don't disagree about contacting the police but it can be a very daunting thing to do so having someone to talk it through with can be very helpful 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisa O`Brien Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 I appear to have reached my positive votes limit for the day! Otherwise I would have liked all these comments. Thank you to the wonderful people who have sent pm's today too .. You've really helped a lot I know there is only one side of the story here and I can't give you the other side .. Sorry This only came out very vaguely from dd after I witnessed an event and made a verbal complaint about belittling and humiliating behaviour to the principal. I'm still thinking about one other girl in particular and advice is useful for thinking that through Thanks again "Belittling and humiliating behaviour". Social Services in the UK identify what they call PENS. Physical,Emotional,Neglect and Sexual. The 4 types of abuse that can take place to a person of any age. I would class belittling and humiliating behaviour as emotional abuse. So she does this as well as physically abuse children. She shouldn`t be allowed anywhere near anyone else`s children. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annaliesey Posted December 21, 2015 Author Share Posted December 21, 2015 If this teacher isn't the director of the school, the director should know what's going on, and also explain why this teacher started bringing the implement back into class when there had obviously been previous problems. Seriously - "this is dance training so we can spank our pupils"? Good grief. The teacher concerned in the smacking is the director/principal When I spoke with her before she referred to it as a "smack" ie; she hadn't meant to do that hard. I think she possibly sees herself with an image of old style ballet mistress to uphold. I honestly thought that the instrument involved was used in a jokey way with the students. It has been a bit jovial even posts having a laugh about it on facebook but if I had known the underlying information I would have felt different as it's been very negative all round for dd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rizzo Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 Dance*is*life that must have made an impression on you This is exactly what's caused DD more distress than anything else .. Being shouted/screamed/ridiculed if she doesn't pick up quickly enough or if she makes mistakes. She doesn't mind too much most of the time when it's someone who equally gives praise where it's due but there are some classes where she says its all negative and she honestly feels like she is singled out when others make mistakes but treated more gently. Several of her teachers have said they are harder on her because she has talent/potential but to be honest they haven't done her any favours as all she has done is withdraw. I'm really cross with myself now for not asking her enough questions and realising what she was dealing with. I thought the object that was waved sbout was just used in a jovial way. The sad thing is she says she is "used to it" or "deserves it" or she's stupid! "The sad thing is she says she is "used to it" or "deserves it" or she's stupid!" This sends chills down my spine- it's like she's being groomed. Get her out of there NOW. And report for the benefit of all the other kids!!!!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annaliesey Posted December 23, 2015 Author Share Posted December 23, 2015 Groomed as in??? I'm not with you .., sorry.. Maybe I'm not understanding you? Do you mean sexually? I have got her out of there now. As sad and as big of a wrench for her, we've taken steps to find classes elsewhere She's just been referred to ENT specialist again for partial deafness and tinnitus so that possibly explains some things that she's been struggling with too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Picturesinthefirelight Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Grooming doesn't have to be sexual. The things your dd has said are often said by children who are being groomed to blindly follow a path into subs whether that be emotional, sexual or physical. You have done absolutly the right thing & though it is hard I hope she flourishes elsewhere. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Being shouted/screamed/ridiculed if she doesn't pick up quickly enough or if she makes mistakes. ....there are some classes where she says its all negative and she honestly feels like she is singled out when others make mistakes but treated more gently. Several of her teachers have said they are harder on her because she has talent/potential but to be honest they haven't done her any favours as all she has done is withdraw. The sad thing is she says she is "used to it" or "deserves it" or she's stupid! All of this is psychological manipulation by the abuser to make the victim believe that it is their fault and they deserve to be treated that way. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rizzo Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Annaliesey, no not sexual, but what Pictures and Taxi4Ballet say. I'm so glad to hear you have moved your DD. It's always hard to move ballet teachers- it's been a wrench for my DD (now at vocational school) to do so several times but has always been the correct move. If you're in Herts I can recommend a lovely teacher who is great with my DD who has Aspergers (this is not my Dd who is at vocational school but her sister who dances just to keep fit). Said teacher is fantastic with all levels, teaches at vocational schools and for NYB as well as her own little dance school. However it sounds like you may have found somewhere already. Good luck to your DD! It sounds as though she needs to have some help to become more resilient, to know what's right and what isn't when it comes to people in positions of power. What about the other kids still with this teacher though? In my view the teacher must be reported - it is a safeguarding issue. Can you contact your local safeguarding children's board for advice? this link may set you on the correct path http://www.safenetwork.org.uk/training_and_awareness/pages/lscbs.aspx just copy and paste it into your browser if it doesn't work when you click on it. All the best to you and your DD, she has a great mum who has done the right thing and sought advice about something that doesn't feel right. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annaliesey Posted December 23, 2015 Author Share Posted December 23, 2015 Thank you Rizzo, Taxi, Pictures... I understand what you mean now We've been lucky that DD has managed to fit in a couple of classes and a couple of private lessons before Christmas and I can see her smile and confidence returning already when she was complimented on picking up quickly and nailing something difficult after one try and beaming from ear to ear. New teacher told her straight that nobody should touch without permission and under no circumstances ever smack I think this meant a lot to her to hear it bluntly from another teacher 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiz Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 That's very good news,Annaliesey. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BiancaNero Posted December 6, 2016 Share Posted December 6, 2016 First of all let me start by saying we are in the process of moving dance schools so that this horrible experience is behind us My DD (age 11) has had a wonderful time with current dance school from age 3 up until about a year ago and things started to go downhill for all sorts of reasons. We persevered as DD "loved" her teachers and I felt a sense of loyalty in terms of working through issues. We did have an incident of a smack about 8 months ago. I thought it was a one off and that the teacher had intended to tap her but hit her a bit harder than she meant to. It was with an object and it did leave a mark on her bottom cheek. My DD cried when I picked her up partly because it hurt and partly because she was so embarrassed as she felt she was stupid. I talked with her at the time and she felt the teacher didn't mean to do it that hard. I was very prepared to take her out of the school at the time but somehow DD persuaded me not to make a fuss and promised me she would tell me again if there was ever another incident and in the meantime I had strong words with the teacher and told her not to ever hit my DD again. The object that was used was not brought into the studio for a while but over the last two months has made a return! It was waved about, then used in an apparent joking way, then this escalated to gentle contact on offending parts of the body and then to a 'tap'. Now as I have said we are in the process of moving. I won't tollerate bullying either physical or emotional. It turns out the emotional aspects are a lot worse than I had realised and I can see I am going to have a lot to do there to help her back to a sense of normality and self worth. Anyway, as far as hitting and smacking goes, I am after advice on a) whether some people are OK about this in the ballet world (I had a mother say to me at the time of the first incident "that's how all the best students learn... something along the lines of look at China and Russia" and my DD has told me about other children who have been hit with offending object. Should I say anything to their mums or not. I don't want to cause grief for the current dance school as quite frankly we are leaving, and want to leave this negativity behind us as quickly as possible but then I think if it was my daughter I would rather I knew. I'm not sure ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BiancaNero Posted December 6, 2016 Share Posted December 6, 2016 Hello Annaliesey, and any other parents who would speak with me for an article on touch in the dance studio. I am a Canadian dance critic and features writer and would like to hear from you, please, about your personal experiences with this contentious issue. Anonymity guaranteed. dkelly@globeandmail.com 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annaliesey Posted December 6, 2016 Author Share Posted December 6, 2016 Yes I'll dm with contact info For anyone who'd like to know a year onwards from this saga .. She lost contact with 99% of children she used to dance with. Social services (LADO) weren't interested as principal admitted smacking but said it was only once and not very hard and I was just a poisonous ex parent! Principal called a meeting with parents and some kids were there and warned them against having contact with us. She told them I had made a complaint that was not upheld My did and I have had a lot of grief from different parents and kids We know for sure others smacked but will not come forward We've put this behind us as nothing more we can do and just hope that others come forward when time is right for them. Dd is flourishing with new and different teachers .. she bounced back very quickly and it has made her very determined to look out for others and not stand for any nonsense in future 15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lema Posted December 6, 2016 Share Posted December 6, 2016 (edited) Glad to hear your lovely dd is doing well and managed to put all this behind her, I'm sure the future is very bright for your little star xx Edited December 6, 2016 by Lema 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAK Posted December 6, 2016 Share Posted December 6, 2016 Yes so pleased for your DD. What a dreadful experience she (and you) have had to go through Annaliesey. Thank goodness things have turned round. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisa O`Brien Posted December 6, 2016 Share Posted December 6, 2016 Delighted to hear things have turned out well for your DD. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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