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Do you mind your own business or get a bit miffed?


annaliesey

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I just wanted to add that a few years ago my daughter attended a dance day experience at The Royal Ballet School. There was a young girl there whose mother said she was new to ballet. She could do all the things that were asked of the girls but was maybe a little more wobbly etc. Long story short was Catherine Wade could not keep away from the young girl whose mother was pulled to the side and the child was offered a place at White Lodge to start straight away. The girl had a lovely look about her but I couldnt see what the RBS could. I did not have the trained eye. The girl and her mother did not take up the offer but accepted an associate place. This young lady is now quite well known and wins quite a few of the big well known ballet competitions. I suppose what I am saying is that sometimes the teacher recognises a special talent and is duty bound to nurture that talent. However not at the expense of the other students but my gut feeling is that this is not the case here and I think the other young pubersent girls might be understandably envious that this newbie has come along and been pushed ahead in her training ahead of some of the others and has not had to serve her time as it were. Thats the ballet world I am afraid and talent needs to be nurtured.

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That's not correct Fiz. There is a girl I know who started at vicational school who had previously only done less than a year of a primary school dance club. Her potential was spotted & she started year 7 not knowing what a plié was.

 

The rest of the class had no problem with the teacher explaining everything to her & Would have been given short shrift had they complained. If anyone had groaned I'd expect them to have been sent out of class. She has exceptional potential & was put straight into an IF class although she had to wait before she was allowed en pointe.

 

I agree with a lot of what primrose says. However what is most telling is that your dd preferred the other RAD teacher & felt she progressed better with her. My dd has had teachers who are good teachers but she just didn't gel with. I suspect it might be a good idea to move her.

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I agree in part but regular students should not be neglected.

 

Is it not possible if this girl is keen and needs to progress quickly that she has the private lessons to catch up on the things the other girls in this class feel they know already etc. Then the time balance in the class between her and the others might be better.

 

Am trying to envisage how I would have dealt with this in a normal educational setting for example if a talented child came along but needed catching up to the rest of the class. Usually if the school has nothing in place the class teacher may offer extra support(have done this myself) or you advise parents to have some extra tuition for a while if can afford it etc.

But I wouldn't feel I could keep holding up the rest of the class to explain things if this is actually what is happening in this instance.

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Everyone is paying the same for their class, and hopefully should benefit from that equally, it does seem a bit unfair if one is receiving far more attention than the others, for whatever reason. There are some teachers (not many thankfully) who do show blatant favouritism towards particular students, and unsurprisingly it doesn't go down at all well with everyone else.

 

Perhaps it might be worth carrying on for a bit, and seeing how the land lies after another term or so.

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I was thinking that ...perhaps till this next exam is over and then if things don't improve and seem fairer then have a rethink about how to continue.

 

Would just like to add that I do think the ballet and sports worlds in general can get a bit overawed by someone with "talent"

Yes of course we must support our talented children but this should not be at the expense of other children and special rule made for them eg....."talented" school footballers who are badly behaved and still allowed to play for the sake of the school where lesser "talented" children would not have been allowed. I have seen this over the years quite a few times and hated it.

 

In the same way just because a child shows a possible talent in ballet they should not expect that they receive special treatment in a noticeable way.

I felt a bit disheartened when I read Pictures post about the girl there. I can appreciate the girl was new to ballet and may have had talent (often just the right body at that stage) but another way has to be found to get her up to speed if others are being held up in my view.....no matter how much talent or potential was seen in her.

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Yes absolutely things have to be explained.

 

It was just reading between the lines(maybe too much!!) that "if anyone had groaned I would expect they would have been sent out of the class" statement.

There seems to be an implication that this girl was considerably behind the others(though with her exceptional talent no doubt catching up soon) even though everyone was being taken back to basics at this stage.....quite a good idea in fact .....however it's a completely different story for girls say for argument sake about grade 5 level being taken back to basics than a comparative beginner learning for the first time.

Anyway off thread now so time to stop I think!!

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Is the teacher not experienced to cater for all needs. Due to lots of reasons, injuries, certain core weaknesses etc, a good teacher will adapt to all levels of ability. Doesn't this happen at workshops and outreach programmes? Anyway damn right if children groaned during class about how a teacher supported any student they would be asked to leave a class. It is called respect for your teacher.

Regarding this thread, as a paying customer, if you are not getting taught to a good standard, or treated in a fair and respected way, then perhaps it is better to move to where you will get what you are paying for.

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I have just reread the original post. It says the young girl was in the class 5 months before the posters daughter and friends so she would have learned quite a bit of the syllabus before these other girls cane into the class. The teacher when questioned even sent a list of what the class has been doing in the last six months but the posters daughter is bored as it seems there is no dance in the classes. It sounds like the posters daughter would be happier elsewhere as she does not like the way her teacher teaches the class as she finds it boring. I am sure if the teacher or child in question were to put their case foreward it would be a different story again. I would just say move on graciously and to wish the new girl best wishes. The ballet world is very small indeed and if both go down the professional path they will bump into each other again.

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I also wanted to add that how must the less able children in the class feel when your daughter and her friends are groaning when the teacher has to stop the class and show the girls what to do. Your daughter is very privileged to be picked to demonstrate the exercises. Most students would be feeling very proud and favoured to be picked to do this. I am sorry to be blunt but you have said you appreciate us speaking our minds but I do feel that your daughter her friends and parents are jealous of this young girl and have built up resentment towards her and the teacher. You have mentioned that your daughter feels highly competetive towards this girl due to competitions etc. Honestly this situation will happen over and over again. It happens in all the voc schools. Students need to be respectful of others and their teachers. I question if the teacher is actually at fault here, as no matter what she does in the eyes of 11 year old girls things will only improve if the new girl is told to leave the class or is ignored by the teacher.

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I had a mother who had the common sense to discuss with me why her daughter wanted to stop Ballet.

 

It turned out that her daughter was perturbed at new students joining the class and the fact that she had to show them what to do. As soon as I explained to the parent that the reason for asking her child to demonstrate was that she was one of the strongest and that I was ensuring that she was still on course for the exam she was satisfied.

 

And her daughter came back to Ballet with big smile! Sometimes us teachers don't realise how our young charges are reading the classes!

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She has only been doing ballet for five months, Lisa. Unless she wants to go for drama vocational school or musical theatre but she would still need more ballet than that.

It doesn`t matter if she has only been doing ballet for 5 months. It`s the potential the top schools look for not what they can do. They probably prefer taking in someone who has only been training for 5 months compared to a child who has danced since she was 3 anyway. Less bad habits to have to iron out when they are taking them back to basics. In that sense,she`d be perfect,if she has the right physique.

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I would like to say that of course I don't expect children to literally groan out loud in class at the teacher!! it has been too literally interpreted what I meant by using the quote from Pictures.

 

It was the fairness to all behind it all that I was (obviously unsuccessfully) trying to get at.

 

Just because they don't groan .....out of respect of course....doesn't meant it's not felt .....if there is unfairness in attention by the teacher I mean....hence why they end up complaining to parents etc.

I think there is some confusion about what exactly is going on in the original posters (annaliesey) DD 's class.....plus what is the attitude teachers have towards talented children but who are behind in actual knowledge and development to others in the same class.

Are pupils being genuinely held up because of over attention to one pupil or not.

I don't really know how vocational schools work and whether for example all year 7 pupils for example are in the same ballet class no,matter what entry ability.....or whether they are immediately put into current ability groups.....which would seem more normal to me.

I just think one has to be as fair as possible towards all children. I also think that teachers have some responsibility for the atmosphere created around their classes. That means if they can see there is some misunderstanding going on they have a duty to sort it out. So if they have not seen something is amiss and more than one parent comes to them about a particular problem that maybe it's time to listen!! As one teacher has already illustrated!

I don't know of course but can only assume that the original posters DD 's teacher has some responsibility in why some girls are feeling disgruntled and may not be (but could be) just a case of jealousy.

Some teaching atmospheres foster jealousy and competition and others inclusion and group understanding.

All pupils need their fair share of nurture and attention from the teacher and after all genuinely gifted and talented pupils will eventually do well anyway.

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They stay in their year group fircthe majority of classes. Apart ftom (at dds school at least) for RaD exsm classes they are vertically streamed as a few children enter having already taken Inter Foundation & higher up the school a new child may not have taken Intermediate (which you have to pass before taking Advanced 1. But that's only ballet two classes per week out of 7-8.

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Yes it it's Janet. DD says they will get started with something and they'll all be happy with getting through the syllabus, doing what they've been told to do with use of terminology which they get and they go for it then the teacher stops and either explains the terminology (and they groan because they know it and don't want to pause whilst she explains it to others) or she will demonstrate the exercise/position for those that don't know it.

 

Apparently my DD is used to demonstrate which winds her up even more :)

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It's been crazy with this girl. For example when she was put into grade 4 ahead of others of similar age who had been dancing since tots the teacher said it was because she was tall!! 

I thought I'd go back and read your original post again, and what has just occurred to me is that this might not be as crazy as it seems after all. All young girls mature physically (and reach puberty) at different ages, and one of the signs of maturing physically is a growth spurt. This could mean that since this girl is more physically mature for her age than some others, then she might be ready to start more challenging work. Perhaps it was a difficult concept for the teacher to adequately explain to a bunch of 10-11 year-olds, so she mentioned height as it was the easiest thing at the time.

 

From what's been explained to me by teachers and what I've picked up over the years, the ballet syllabus is very carefully graded so that exercises gradually increase in technical difficulty in line with the expected physical maturity of the students taking that grade. This is why the vocational grades in particular have minimum ages for taking the exams. 

 

Something else to bear in mind, is that the new RAD grades are more challenging than before (so I'm told) and need a stronger technique at grade 4+. This could be why the teacher is spending more time breaking down the exercises in class (and why it has started to be a bit boring!).

 

Having said all that though, if your dd is really not happy at the school any more, then it might be the time to think about moving on. At her age, she might well benefit from a new approach from a different teacher anyway. 

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Yes I agree that's what seems to have happened in annalieseys DD 's case.

 

But Pictures was referring to a different (but sort of similar) scenario at a vocational school where any 'groaning" would have got the pupils sent out of the class.

 

I am saying yes it is disrespectful to do this in a class and a teacher must decide what to do about it in any particular session.

However if it kept happening the teacher might like to wonder why and then perhaps be able to gain the insight to sort it out.

 

I must confess I'm on the point of hysterical laughter (also at myself) in trying to gain some understanding of this case.

 

However I was at the Shoreham Air show yesterday and it may be affecting my judgement.

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.... You say that the current teacher has been very good up until this situation with the new girl.

 

it's girls not girl. There are 8 in the class altogether. 4 have come up through the ranks and 4 are brand new to ballet

 

I suspect the teacher has seen something special in this girl and feels she has the ability to progress a lot further.

 

Quite possibly and I don't have a problem with this. I've said that the teachers passion for teaching ballet to students at all ages and stages is something I like about her. I just don't want my DD to be thrown under the bus to make room :)

 

11 year old girls very easily have their noses put out and I suspect there is jealousy going on here with all the girls ganging up together. I can imagine that no matter what this girl says it will be seen as boasting.

 

They are resentful that half their class has been 'invaded' for want of a better word by newbies and one girl in particular that is the age she is because they immediately felt the difference in their class. They are resentful that their pace has slowed in comparison to what it has been before and what it is in other classes. They fear their progress is being slowed when they are aiming for vocational school and the new 4 aren't. I don't think this is the same as jealousy. Jealousy to me is wishing to have something that someone else has, or do something another person can do or have an attribute someone else has ie confidence/intelligence/empathy/insight or even look differently ie; attractive/prettier/slimer/graceful/better skin/nicer hair etc.

 

Nobody is ganging up on anyone. My DD just wants to do some classes elsewhere and I'm having a dilemma. They are asking the teacher if they can move onto learning syllabus dances instead of spending 6 months going over exercises.

 

If there is any jealousy it is because there is a different set of rules for this girl compared with everyone else. They don't see why they have to do at least two classes a week (twice the cost) and be distinction level, and attend stretch and conditioning classes and Freework classes or exam rehearsals (all extra cost) etc before they can do an exam instead of one hour a week and not be concerned about levels. My DD would love to just have a shot at the exam after 30 hours if she was given the opportunity and so would 2 of the others :) and possibly the other new girls too.

 

one view that has been shared (by a different teacher at the school) is that these new girls are only doing ballet to help with other dance forms and competition dances (lyrical and contemporary) rather than to be ballerinas and therefore the ballet teacher will be more serious about the training of the old 4. I haven't mentioned this before as didn't seem relevant but maybe it is after all.

 

All classes can be stop start even in vocational schools. The teacher does need to make sure that all students understand the exercises.

Accepted. And she does at least 12 classes a week all with an element of stop/start but not to this extreme.

 

Obviously I can only go on what my DD describes and I'm trying to portray things as best I can. And obviously there are 2 or 3 or 8 sides to this story but I have nothing to gain by presenting a version too far from the truth or otherwise I'll get meaningless advice :)

 

I just posted this thread to pose a scenario and asking people whether they would be a bit miffed and allow their dancing children to take up classes elsewhere ie; is it a good reason or whether they would be tolerant and patient and mind their own business as its not in my nature to discard 8 years of relationship with a dance teacher easily :)

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Three or four years in one grade is absurd :wacko:

 

Their progress in all that time has nothing at all to do with whether or not the pupils 'work hard' and everything to do with the quality of teaching and the ability of the teacher IMHO. Students can work their butts off, but if they aren't being motivated and are not receiving the right sort of corrections consistently, they will never improve!

Yes, well, I don't really know what opinion to have on this :) I just presumed that in the same way that some students progress super-fast others might progress super-slow. I just assume maybe people were missing classes or chatting or staring out of the window or whatever :) I was just trying to make the point that the teacher is known for keeping students in a grade until she feels they are ready with no amount of cajoling or persuading to just chuck them into an exam and hope they pass :)

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It's a sad fact that children or indeed people with natural talent in any form, can sometimes come across as being boastful. I think the reason is maybe they find things easier than the majority, who have to work hard to achieve the same results. It might not be in this case, but just a thought.

Yes I agree and I think they are more innocent of this when they are younger but when they get older they become more considerate of other people's feelings.

 

(The mum is in her 40's though *wink*) :)

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You never know,it could be that this girl`s mother has indicated her daughter wants to audition for vocational school . Maybe the teacher is just trying to get her ready as quickly as possible,and knows the situation is different for the rest of the girls in the class. Just a guess,of course.

I dont know the aspirations of the girl who is apparently doing an early exam and actually I feel a bit uncomfortable making this thread just about her :)

 

But if any student at grade 4 and age 12-15 wanted to aim for vocational route wouldn't they be expected or encouraged to do more than one hour a week.

 

All the 'old 4' do inter foundation, stretch and conditioning, pointe/pointe prep, and Freework/additional technique. The 'new 4' don't do any of these

 

There are also classes on offer for lyrical, contemporary, musical theatre, and the 'new 4' only do one or two of these :)

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I agree in part but regular students should not be neglected.

 

Is it not possible if this girl is keen and needs to progress quickly that she has the private lessons to catch up on the things the other girls in this class feel they know already etc. Then the time balance in the class between her and the others might be better.

 

 

There isnt even the necessity for expensive private lessons. All of the students are encouraged to do other ballet technique and freework classes but choose not too. The packages and discounts couldn't be better and the conditioning class is even free but none of them attend it!

 

Am trying to envisage how I would have dealt with this in a normal educational setting for example if a talented child came along but needed catching up to the rest of the class. Usually if the school has nothing in place the class teacher may offer extra support(have done this myself) or you advise parents to have some extra tuition for a while if can afford it etc.

But I wouldn't feel I could keep holding up the rest of the class to explain things if this is actually what is happening in this instance.

I think that actually there is a disconnect between the old 4 feeling they are going at a slower pace and the teacher thinking they are going at their usual pace. I don't think she's aware of how it genuinely feels to them as is caught up in her enthusiasm for teaching ballet to the newbies. Sorry if this sounds uneducated on my part but I've been trying to analyse in order to support my DD and I mean no disrespect to proven good teaching practises.

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I think you should have a netting with the teacher on your own. Discuss your concerns and how your daughter is feeling. I hope the teacher is approachable. I hope there is a happy outcome. For the record though, if your daughter is heading for vocational school, most of us parents (not all) tend to put up and shut up. That is wrong, very wrong, but it's just the way it is.

LiMN I hope you are ok, it was awful seeing the report, big hugs sent to you.

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I suspect that there is something very special the teacher has seen in this child.

 

Yes very likely :)

 

She probably has all the desired physical attributes and is probably a fast learner.

 

Yes she is a fast learner but I don't know about physical attributes and accept completely your comments about trained eye :)

 

If she has done other dance exams she clearly is not new to dance.

 

No she's not new to dance. She's done modern jazz and contemporary for about 2 years.

 

The teacher seems to get good results from the students exam wise ...

 

The highest marks are still the long serving students whereas the students that are quickly progressing through their grades in other dance styles (modern & jazz) are achieving low passes (52-54%). This was one of the reasons that ballet classes were being missed for a term whilst this student had lessons to retake in order to try and get a better mark.

 

... and seems to be well established with competitions and festivals.

 

The comp team has only been running for about 2 years but all the girls involved have benefitted enormously from the intensive training and all of them have had to be fast learners to do well. Out of the 8 girls in the grade 4 ballet class 4 of them are comp team members so that's possibly another indicator of why they would like to go a bit faster.

 

I suspect this child already has knowledge about ballet,

All of the new girls were completely new to ballet when they joined in September. They all had zero knowledge of ballet. :)

 

I can not see a well established teacher or school allowing a child with absolutely no ballet training into a grade 4 class as the child would not be able to do the exercises,

 

This is why the mums and old students were surprised when the new 4 joined. Especially the younger girl as she was the youngest in that grade and there were newbies in grade 3 that were quite a bit older. At least one of whom had allegedly asked to do grades 3 and 4 together but was told no because of confusion with terminology and risk of injury. But everyone trusted the teachers judgement albeit concerned from the outset of the impact when the old grade 3's moved into the class.

 

I thought the RAD used to only allow students to join at grade 3 minimum until a change a few years ago but I can't be sure and can't find any info on what it was previously.

 

... when in actual fact she has been entered for the exam.

 

Nobody has actually been entered for the exam yet. My DD's friend has said they are aiming to be entered around Nov time.

 

The teacher clearly knows when a child is ready for the exams as in the schools history there has never been a failure result.

 

Yes but I was asking the question too about entering early and risking lower marks versus being patient and aiming for higher marks and the merits of different approaches :)

 

I think the poster and her child need to concentrate on themselves alone and move on to another school if they are not happy with the teachers decisions.

I think we will continue to focus on ourselves, ignoring what's happening with other students and won't leave the school but will take up additional / replacement classes elsewhere without feeling bad about loyalty :)

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Thank you for your kind thoughts. I'm okay and didn't see the actual crash as we were a bit late so to avoid the traffic were walking above Steyning towards Lancing College and didn't arrive until about 1.45

We could see all the smoke but didn't realise a plane had just crashed as there are often battle reenactments etc at air shows.

We were then puzzled as to why not much seemed to,be going on and the Vulcan which we had really gone to see (a truly magnificent plane to see flying just above you) just flew by and straight off. Only later did we learn what a horrific accident there had been .....but because it's a road we know really well and in fact in previous years have parked up the lane at the junction on the A27 where it happened in order to see the show from Lancing Hill we were affected by it all and I'm in a strange mood today I think.......it hasn't helped replaying videos and trying to understand how it happened.....I'm sure I can hear that the engine cut out partly and is the reason it lost power. But thoughts go to the families of those who died or were injured.

 

Sorry annaliesey have gone completely off thread but just getting this off my chest.

I do hope you get all this sorted especially as until now you seem to have had a good relationship with this teacher.

 

It must be very difficult these days trying to keep ballet schools afloat business wise .....maybe teachers sometimes have no choice but to take on new pupils who it may be difficult to fit into,the exact right class because they need the school to survive.

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