Can musicality and expression be taught??

[aileen]

Yes, a dance club at school, which is likely to be more contemporary / jazz / street dance based, might encourage this girl to relax more and just dance for enjoyment without worrying about whether her technique is perfect. This might open her mind (I mean this supportively) to the possibilities of careers in other forms of dance, and might allow her to become more expressive when she dances.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

Dd says that the years of drama classes she attended really helped her dance with expression.

 

Often there are subsidised youth theatre's around that don't cost much (depending on area)

[Lema]

Yes pointeless it is a hard decision and I think without a crystal ball we will never know if we are making the right choice or not!! I think that's what makes these decisions so hard actually, the uncertainty of making the right choice. Best of luck to your friend she has had some brilliant advice here so I'm sure it will help her to make an informed decision

[Pointe-less]

Have you been able to get any feedback from auditions or find out positions on reserve lists? Many people say there is still time and places could come available. Just today I informed one associate scheme that my dd wouldn't be returning so hopefully someone will get a nice email. What does the child wish to do, does she know?

I don't know about this year but I know in previous years she hasn't had any feedback and has kept hope that something will come up later on with movement on the lists but it never has so she knows that her dd can't be top of the list so to speak as other have been offered places from reserve but never her DD. What lovely news for one dancer to receive then if your DD is turning down a place on a scheme, they'll be a happpy little dancer out there soon then

[Pointe-less]

I believe that she already does an after school club in dance plus her school does dance as a lesson too so she has had a weekly class from year 7 but I've no idea what style they do or what standard it's at I'm afraid? My take on it is the DD is split between ballet and all rounder, she really wanted to be a ballerina and concentrated on that for a long time and gave it her all, but I think the realisation that it more than likely isn't going to happen has made her think that maybe she should go back and do all the other dance as it will open more/different doors in the future, BUT I think she feels that it will be perceived as her giving up or dropping out when the going gets tough. Her mother certainly doesn't see it that way and I know she told her that it's just a change in direction and that if she had doubts then maybe ballet isn't where she should be putting all her time and effort. Very difficult situation as I'm sure if they had the money then the DD would choose to do the ballet and just add other classes on top!

[2dancersmum]

I think perhaps you ought to encourage the poster and her DD to look at some of the schools that offer post-16 training, perhaps do a few open days or see a few shows.  There really are very few that are purely classical.  If the qualification is the level 6 Trinity diploma (in ProFessional Dance), for example, then the student will be assessed in technique and performance for 2 dance styles.  It is a requirement of the qualification. But also look at entry requirements - as another poster mentioned - initial auditions often include classes in ballet, contemporary and jazz so it could be useful to add another string to her bow, as it were.  Though personally I would keep as much of the ballet as possible and just pick up one style (probably jazz) as 16+ will still expect the proficiency in ballet - regardless of if she applies for ballet or dance courses - but might look at potential still for other dance styles.  I say this on the basis that my DD had never done tap or contemporary before and she was still successful at 16.

[Dreamy11]

What about emailing the 2 schools she went to this year, it wouldnt do any harm to ask for feedback or positions on reserves, they can only say no. Just a thought.

[sarahw]

It may be worth seriously assessing the value of the Associate courses? My dd has done several and in retrospect 2 were not value for money - one due to a class size of 30 and one due to a failure of the teacher to connect with my dd. We would have been better spending on quality teaching at home.

[Nicola Moriarty]

This is a definite yes. You just have to tap into how someone thinks!!!

[Nicola Moriarty]

To be honest its the best bit about teaching. Some students are so worried about their place in class if the are good enough!! How can they expressive tranquility when they are worrying etc.

Its a magical thing. I believe if you really want to dance someone will be able to help you find it. Rhythm on the other hand is a little difficult you have to drill the student. Then a new exercise comes and they are off in their own world...... But I've seen teachers work miracles

[Kate_N]

From the outside, this is such a sad thread to read.

 

I think it's really sad that a child who has been VERY successful is seen as a failure. NO wonder she's "stiff" in her dancing. She's obviously talented, but not been funded. Is funding the only indicator of "success"? There is no guarantee that she will become a professional dancer. Even if she were to be funded at 13.

 

Maybe doing some other styles of dance will help her loosen up. But maybe her mother needs to stop overthinking this, and stop looking for "success" in specific terms, and take what successes her daughter has had. Maybe her daughter feels second-best in her mother's eyes? Gosh, being accepted into two Associate programmes and at two vocational schools at 13/14 is success! Why is the mother naysaying this?

[Dreamy11]

Success to everyone means different things, it depends what personal goals you have. I think lots of useful advice has been offered and would like to wish the dd lots of happy times ahead in whatever she chooses to do.

[taxi4ballet]

Having been in almost this exact situation, I can say that it is an extremely difficult position to be in; and is very demoralising for the dancer concerned - and really hard for the parents to know how to handle it. It has a huge effect on self-esteem and motivation. The setbacks make it all the harder to throw yourself into training with enthusiasm and joi de vivre, because you feel like a failure no matter how hard you work, and are continually questioning yourself. Any normal correction in class is taken as criticism and further proof that you haven't got what it takes after all. 

 

For us, thank goodness it all worked out OK in the end, and one of the things that really helped to lighten the mood was that dd took jazz classes which she really enjoyed and were actual fun rather than relentless hard work.

[Lema]

From the outside, this is such a sad thread to read.

 

I think it's really sad that a child who has been VERY successful is seen as a failure. NO wonder she's "stiff" in her dancing. She's obviously talented, but not been funded. Is funding the only indicator of "success"? There is no guarantee that she will become a professional dancer. Even if she were to be funded at 13.

 

Maybe doing some other styles of dance will help her loosen up. But maybe her mother needs to stop overthinking this, and stop looking for "success" in specific terms, and take what successes her daughter has had. Maybe her daughter feels second-best in her mother's eyes? Gosh, being accepted into two Associate programmes and at two vocational schools at 13/14 is success! Why is the mother naysaying this?

I agree that this reads as very sad but I can relate as my DD sometimes feels she's been unsuccessful with not getting funding, she fully understands that she has secured a place and that's a huge achievement but when speaking to any friends and family members who find at all hard to understand all she ever hears is "so you didn't get in then?!" I think an outsider has very black/white view on it all you either got in or you didn't, and no matter how many times you explain they never quite get it and this can be so disheartening to a child. So maybe if the mother and DD have heard this so many times it has skewed their outlook?? However, that said I believe that it is the mothers place to remain positive and really emphasise the achievement the DD has made, young dancers are often very hard on themselves as they strive for perfection and pin all their hopes into gaining a place and achieving their dreams, so we need to make sure that they understand that there are many roads to Rome and the funding doesn't mean you weren't good enough, just there wasn't enough money to go around!! I really wish them the best of luck with their decision and for the dd's future!

[annaliesey]

From the outside, this is such a sad thread to read.

 

I think it's really sad that a child who has been VERY successful is seen as a failure. NO wonder she's "stiff" in her dancing. She's obviously talented, but not been funded. Is funding the only indicator of "success"? There is no guarantee that she will become a professional dancer. Even if she were to be funded at 13.

 

Maybe doing some other styles of dance will help her loosen up. But maybe her mother needs to stop overthinking this, and stop looking for "success" in specific terms, and take what successes her daughter has had. Maybe her daughter feels second-best in her mother's eyes? Gosh, being accepted into two Associate programmes and at two vocational schools at 13/14 is success! Why is the mother naysaying this?

Hear hear!

 

This is where we were a couple of years ago and I admit I got completely sucked into over thinking things. I was one of those parents seriously considering remortgaging the house (but didn't think about it for long).

 

It was threads on this forum that pulled me up fast in terms of employment opportunities later. Our children are only trying for vocational schools in order to work professionally later and the vocational schools are only one route.

 

And the story and route of Alexandra Ollff has been a huge inspiration in our household.

 

It's easy for parents and some dance teachers to quickly judge someone's success or lack of it purely on lack of funding.

 

There are so many children in this position so instead of trying to fix something that isn't broken I just think people should concentrate on doing what makes them happy and be the best that they can be at that and keep their fingers crossed for options later down the line at post 16

 

There are so many resources available that are relatively cheap ... YouTube, RAD app, ISTD dvd's, clubs at school, drop in classes at places like pineapple at £8 per class, university ballet clubs, independent entries at festivals at £5 per entry level. I'm sure others can find more.

 

I know of one girl who has been doing CAT scheme, private lessons with ballet teacher every day with time out of school every afternoon, then afternoon/evening classes every day of the week, plus festival rehearsals, so probably around the 24-26 hours per week mark and she too isn't actually going off to vocational school either in September so it's not for the lack of hours or money

 

It's a horribly unfair position to be in but there's a lot in the same boat all trying to do what we can.

[Pointe-less]

Thank you everyone you have all been really helpful and I have printed out and passed on the whole conversation, and I would like to point out that this story is being told via a third party and maybe I'm not expressing the families feelings and thoughts, just repeating what mum has said, so there is more to it than what you read here, I've just tried to give a rough overview, but mum was happy with what I've put so think it's a pretty fair summery of the situation. Thank you again, and Annaliesley your last post puts things into perspective.

 

I think my friend just feels a little lost and just looking for others opinions, to which you all have responded perfectly. Thank you again, and I trying to convince her to join for herself as it would be much easier to ask questions etc but she is a bit of a technophobe lol xx

[Huddsballetmum]

I would suggest dropping one ballet class for a contemporary class.  The dd is the right age to appreciate contemporary and as Taxi4ballet stated, there are no pure classical schools from 16 onwards and all teach contemporary to some degree.  The themes and performance element may well help with the stiffness as well.  I know it has worked for a girl in my DD's CAT programme. 

 

Sounds to me as if this DD is very talented , but sometimes we have to just realise that in dance, particularly ballet, not everyone is going to become a professional dancer! 

[Guest]

From the outside, this is such a sad thread to read.

 

I think it's really sad that a child who has been VERY successful is seen as a failure. NO wonder she's "stiff" in her dancing. She's obviously talented, but not been funded. Is funding the only indicator of "success"? There is no guarantee that she will become a professional dancer. Even if she were to be funded at 13.

 

Maybe doing some other styles of dance will help her loosen up. But maybe her mother needs to stop overthinking this, and stop looking for "success" in specific terms, and take what successes her daughter has had. Maybe her daughter feels second-best in her mother's eyes? Gosh, being accepted into two Associate programmes and at two vocational schools at 13/14 is success! Why is the mother naysaying this?

Well said! Is the 'stiffness' always apparent or does it happen and/or get worse when she's dancing in front of an audience? I've been told that it can stem from misplaced perfectionism, and that to give yourself in a performance you need to be able to take risks. And to take risks you have to be allowed to fail sometimes. In case you think this is bit new age I know of another parent whose dd often struggled with ballet exams and usually scraped a distinction. This parent decided that maybe they were a part of the problem. And made a point of telling said dd that they actually didn't care what her result was and that she would still be the same beautiful dancer no matter what it was. Strangely enough she got a mark in the mid 90s for that exam.

[sarahw]

My dd has had not a disimilar background. I would agree that the performance skills suffer if child is under pressure - and this is often self generated. It can be a vicious cycle. I think maturity affects performance as well. In our case a year off auditioning gave space for development.

[taxi4ballet]

My dd has had not a disimilar background. I would agree that the performance skills suffer if child is under pressure - and this is often self generated. It can be a vicious cycle. I think maturity affects performance as well. In our case a year off auditioning gave space for development.

Definitely - if they are tense and concentrating so hard to get the technique right, they can't 'let go' and perform. And a 'concentrating' face can be mistaken for a 'worried' expression too!

Edited May 20, 2016 by taxi4ballet

[Flora]

In all honesty anyway how many really have everything going for them: well trained, amazing bodies, great acting skills and light as a feather musicality..

 

Even in the top schools you see some perfect bodies accompanied by pretty wooden/not flowing dancing- especially in the lower years.   

[Sandi]

I think it is all so subjective and ..... I guess the wooden dancing taken in by lower years eventually gets accessed out .From what I have seen at Audition ........ the mind boggles to what gets through ! Which goes back to being so so subjective .

I think the best thing is for us parents to get a life ! far away from the dancing world !

[Dance*is*life]

It must be very frustrating for them to have such a talented daughter, but to lack the financial resources to develop her talents properly.  Is there anything she could do in her local school to work in exchange for another class (be on reception desk, answer phones, help with the little ones?). 

 

I personally think that only learning ballet nowadays is a no go.  Repertoire has changed so much that you really need a decent training in modern as well as classical.  Dancers need to be versatile and all the top schools include contemporary work in their timetables nowadays.  When I was at the RBS, we didn't have anything but classical and character, because that was all you needed for the repertoire then.  That is really not the case today, so yes I think she should try and replace one ballet class with a modern class.  It will also help her to relax and be less stiff in her movements.  I had a student who was so classical that she found modern really difficult, even though she had it once a week from about 9.  Then she went to the dance stream in the local high school, where she got much more modern training and suddenly her dancing changed - she has far more energy and stage presence and is now a trainee in our national ballet company and surprising all who knew her with the increased dynamic in her dancing. 

[Pointe-less]

Hi everyone I've not logged in for a while so I thought I'd give you a quick update, the family had a good long conversation and have decided that the best solution given the financial restraints is for DD to drop some ballet and go back to her little local school to go back to doing modern, tap, acro etc and just keep one 2.5 hour non syllabus ballet class per week and one associates class, she probably isn't going to re audition for vocational schools this year! They appreciated all the advice offered and said it really helped them with the decision. DD is also doing GCSE dance at school and takes part in the after school dance, drama and choir clubs so hopefully the combination of all the different activities will help boost her confidence

[Guest]

Happy to hear your friends have found a positive outcome and one that takes off the pressure. Some little local dance schools can provide surprisingly good training. Good Luck!