Pointe-less Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 I was wondering if anyone can shed any light on this question for me...can musicality and expression be taught? My child is very new to ballet and to be honest only does it as a hobby, but I have a number of friends with fairly advanced dd's and most of which seem blessed with a natural poise and gracefulness in their movement, however one friend has a dd who really looks the part, tiny, slim, flexible, beautiful feet etc. and her mother tells me how her daughter is loved by her teachers for her perfect turnout and beautiful technique and her perfectionism shines through in all her movements but that she is often told she lacks musicality and doesn't express herself. I have had the pleasure of watching said child at festivals and I think she is a beautiful dancer but does seem a little stuff and not as fluid as other dancers her age (13) Her head doesn't have the graceful lines and sometimes she looks like she isn't enjoying herself. I know some have said that it comes with age but for me watching others her age manage it made me wonder if this is something one is born with, a natural gracefulness and ability to move fluidly to music, Or it is something that is taught and a better teacher may be able to bring a stiff student to life or is it a little of each?? Just idol wondering but am very keen to hear others opinions 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squeaky Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Its blooming hard to get out there and 'perform'! Especially when you are concentrating on remembering the moves. I think it can be taught and I think it can be coaxed out many - often stage/drama lessons help - its about believing in yourself, forgetting that you are being watched and more often than not judged. My son struggles with musicality and expression - when he does forget he is being watched, when he believes in himself and what he can do - oh heavens he is fantastic to watch - he really shines. He does struggle with remembering sequences (he is dyslexic) and it takes a lot of repetition and concentration for it to sink in - so often he is beats behind everyone but like I say when he does get it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulip Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Perhaps this child doesn't really enjoy festivals. What is she like in a school performance? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
straceydor Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 My dd is not the perfect ballerina, she doesn't have perfect turnout or the perfect ballerina body, and she never used to look graceful but in the last year she has changed her movements look graceful and she acts more like a ballerina might. Not sure why but she does 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pointe-less Posted July 2, 2015 Author Share Posted July 2, 2015 Tulip I have only ever seen her in festivals but her mother told me she is always like it, even in class, she loves to dance she is just a stuff dancer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pointe-less Posted July 2, 2015 Author Share Posted July 2, 2015 *stiff not stuff, bloomin auto type!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pups_mum Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 I think its like most things - partly an intrinsic ability and partly a learned skill. Some people do have more natural musicality and expressiveness than others, but with the right teaching and encouragement most can improve on their natural baseline. And regarding gracefulness, in my admittedly inexpert opinion, I think that its not uncommon that children who are not at all graceful dancers in the early years blossom into beautiful ballet dancers later. Young girls with long limbs and a lot of flexibility can look rather ungainly sometimes, almost like newborn foals who haven't quite learned to control their wobbly limbs yet. But as they strengthen and develop more core stability everything changes.Physical attributes that may be the cause of frustration initially become great assets as the dancer matures - a rather "gangly" child may well develop into an incredibly graceful teenager and adult. 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legseleven Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 I think musicality is either there or it isn't - some people just genuinely don't seem to 'hear' the rhythm in any piece of music - although sometimes with maturity an ability to 'flow through' the music develops. With expressiveness it definitely seems to develop with maturity if it hasn't always been there. Plus there is a 'stagey'-ness to some children which can be considered as 'expressiveness' but as far as I'm concerned is showmanship. Not a bad thing to have but not the same thing as expressing feelings, emotions, moods through dance. - I always remember the Joffrey Ballet auditions on Dance Moms when Maddie was told that she demonstrates great showmanship - but Chloe was the one whose expressive dancing got her the scholarship 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dance*is*life Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 I think that to a certain extent students can be taught both to listen to the music and to express it. Musicality is not just keeping in time - it's feeling the music and adjusting your movements to match the style of the music. There are always the few to whom it comes naturally and they are a joy to watch, but I find that the majority need to be taught to listen to the music. On stage it is often a question of having the confidence and ability to let yourself go and yes I agree totally about the colt effect. Maturity brings better co-ordination and control of the extremities and an ability to "go with the flow" of the music. Stage presence is another matter, but this too either comes naturally or develops with maturity. Of course there are those who don't achieve either quality, but then I don't suppose they'll ever become professional dancers. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squeaky Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 oh and another thing that has really made a difference to my son - a piano being played in class - he finds it a lot more enjoyable, easier to listen to and responds so much better 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CeliB Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 (edited) I agree with comments above: in my opinion this is like almost every aspect of human endeavour- everyone is born somewhere on a continuum at one end of which is no inherant ability and the other end is exceptional inherant ability. All can be taught and can improve but probably only to a certain extent (how far being dependant on the quality of teaching and the level of application of the individual to the task). I personally believe this is as true for artistic expression as it is for physical suitability. So whilst I am sure with training and willpower I could become a far better runner than I am today, I would never expect to make the olympic team (ok I know this is now because I am too old, but even if I wasnt!!). My Mum is tone deaf- she could probably be taught to play an instrument but try she ever so hard she could never become a concert musician. My DS has always had natural musicality. He is always exactly on the beat and moves as if the music was moving through his very bones. My daughter is a competant dancer but simply doesnt do this- and she's been dancing for about 7 years longer. No doubt she is better than if she'd never danced, but she'll never get close to what DS has.... Edited July 7, 2015 by CeliB 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pointe-less Posted May 16, 2016 Author Share Posted May 16, 2016 Sorry to revive an old thread but I have another question regarding the child from the OP (I have permission from her mother to post, infact she asked me to) So the dancer is 14 now and has had another unsuccessful year at auditions, or should I say in her eyes it was unsuccessful, she was offered places at 2 schools, 1 with no funding and the other with a funding audition which resulted in not gaining an MDS. She was offered a place at the same two schools last year and both with no funding. She is a RBS MA and an associate at another scheme also, she does roughly 5.5 ballet per week, syllabus and non syllabus plus the 4 hours monthly with her associates. Well the mother and daughter feel they have reached a cross roads and are looking for a bit of advice on which way people would advise her to go, she either carries on with the ballet (she only doesn ballet, no other styles at all) at the same hours as financially they can't afford to take on more classes or she continues with the associates plus 2.5 hours of ballet per week and replaces the other hours with other styles such as jazz, tap, contemporary, acro, lyrical etc Mother feels that if her dd hasn't secured a place by now then she never will as she can't increase her hours, she can't increase her time en pointe and she feels that the dd will fall behind and not have enough experience to secure funding in the future, and by doing only ballet she is putting all her eggs in one basket. Whereas if she gives up 3 hours of ballet and just does 1hr syllabus, 1hr non syllabus and 30min pointe plus her associates then with the other 3 hours she can take other classes and be more of an all rounder thus increasing her options for the future. I think I have included everything here but will show post to the mom and add anything missing if necessary. The basic gist of the post is if you feel that a child isn't going to succeed as a purely classical dancer do you think it's worth while just sticking with ballet (which is where her heart lies) or is it better to quit while your ahead and try to broaden your horizons by returning to a full and varied schedule of styles? I hope this makes sense, any opinions appreciated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kat09 Posted May 16, 2016 Share Posted May 16, 2016 Has the dancer been progressed to Senior Associates from September? If so I would say that she is still a strong contender for a Ballet based course at US. How does the dancer feel she would like to proceed - is she infact interested in exploring other styles. There have been many stories on here of children who have failed to achieve funding at LS but have succeeded at post 16. Is she ready to give up on that particular dream and replace it with one which is just as hard to progress with … no guarantees whichever route you take i'm afraid 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisa O`Brien Posted May 16, 2016 Share Posted May 16, 2016 Gosh,that's a hard one. I think I would say that at 14,she still has a bit of a way to go yet. Only time will tell .This will manifest itself when she comes to audition for Upper School places at 16. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarahw Posted May 16, 2016 Share Posted May 16, 2016 (edited) Could I ask what the opinion of her home and Associate teachers are? Being an RBS MA is a sign of great potential. Has the physique changed with puberty? Does the dd want to consider a non classical career? Branching out also extends career opportunities in teaching etc. I personally think spending time on modern is useful to ballet and offers diversity. Others less relevant to ballet but obviously more diversity. Edited May 16, 2016 by sarahw 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pups_mum Posted May 16, 2016 Share Posted May 16, 2016 Has she ever done any other genres at all, or has it been only ballet throughout her training to date? If she has never done anything else then I would think it's worth exploring some other options. Ballet may well be where her heart lies, but if she hasn't experienced other forms of dance there may be other genres that she hasn't discovered yet. As I understand it, even the more classically focused vocational schools do teach other genres. There are so few job opportunities in purely classical companies so having other strings to her now may be advantageous. It's difficult, if it involves having to drop her favourite classes though. Would there be any chance of taking a few extra classes in other genres just to see how she enjoys them, deferring a final decision until she knows whether she enjoys the other classes at all? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted May 16, 2016 Share Posted May 16, 2016 So the dancer is 14 now and has had another unsuccessful year at auditions, or should I say in her eyes it was unsuccessful, she was offered places at 2 schools, 1 with no funding and the other with a funding audition which resulted in not gaining an MDS. She was offered a place at the same two schools last year and both with no funding. She is a RBS MA and an associate at another scheme also, Mother feels that if her dd hasn't secured a place by now then she never will I think I have included everything here but will show post to the mom and add anything missing if necessary. The basic gist of the post is if you feel that a child isn't going to succeed as a purely classical dancer do you think it's worth while just sticking with ballet (which is where her heart lies) or is it better to quit while your ahead and try to broaden your horizons by returning to a full and varied schedule of styles? Ok, No 1 - No, that's no unsuccessful, she's done really well! She's on two associate programmes, and been offered vocational places (albeit without MDS but they are like gold dust to be honest). No 2 - When it comes to being offered a place for 6th form it is worth remembering that as well as the 4 schools which take from 11-16, there are many more options for 16+ training including ENBS, Central, Ballet West, RCS, BTUK, Northern, and Rambert. So there are far more places available for 16+ training than there are for 11-16. So all is definitely not lost No 3 - Actually, there really aren't any classical-only schools, or indeed jobs any more. All the vocational schools teach contemporary and/or jazz and usually other styles as well as classical. Many upper school ballet auditions will include either contemporary or jazz as part of the audition, so it would probably be a good idea if your friend's dd could do at least one of these styles. Obviously money is tight, but would it be possible for her to attend a summer school or maybe do a few workshops so she could gain just a little experience? Perhaps it might be possible to ask one of her associate teachers for advice about whether she should concentrate on ballet-only, or to branch out and include classes in another style, even if it means dropping one ballet class a week? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 16, 2016 Share Posted May 16, 2016 There are a lot of 14 yr olds out there who would love to be in one associate program let alone two. For her mother to honestly feel that 'if she hasn't secured a place by now she never will' is so terribly unhelpful. Parents have such an important role to play in nurturing courage, self belief and tenacity. Of course its not always easy, that why we have wine, and this forum. The dd is still young, there are lots more opportunities at 16+ and I really wish her well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamy11 Posted May 16, 2016 Share Posted May 16, 2016 I can relate to how this parent/ child perhaps feels, my dd felt if it didn't happen this year it simply wasn't going to. It's always hard when you have you heart so set on things. I wouldn't give up and if the child wants it so much there is still plenty of time and US auditions still to go. Most of the time things have a way of working out. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lema Posted May 16, 2016 Share Posted May 16, 2016 Wow that's a tricky situation but one I can fully relate to at the moment as we too are worrying about where dd's future lies, do we carry on with just the ballet or return to doing other styles too?! We worry that DD isn't getting enough hours in to be a serious contender in future auditions and can't really take one more classes, but ultimate I think that the daughter has to follow her heart and do what she feels is right for her, us moms are really just along for the ride, we can only offer support and advice as only the daughter knows what her heart desires!! Good luck to them both. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pointe-less Posted May 16, 2016 Author Share Posted May 16, 2016 Has the dancer been progressed to Senior Associates from September? If so I would say that she is still a strong contender for a Ballet based course at US. How does the dancer feel she would like to proceed - is she infact interested in exploring other styles. There have been many stories on here of children who have failed to achieve funding at LS but have succeeded at post 16. Is she ready to give up on that particular dream and replace it with one which is just as hard to progress with … no guarantees whichever route you take i'm afraid . I don't think that she has got SA but will have to check with mum on that one as I could be mistaken :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted May 16, 2016 Share Posted May 16, 2016 This girl obviously has plenty of talent as evidenced by her acceptance on two associate schemes and the offer of places at two schools, albeit without funding. There are very few places available at some schools in years 8 to 10. However, as well as the natural disappointment of the girl and her mother there is the worry that the girl will not be able to 'keep up' with her peers because the family is not in a position to pay for additional lessons. I think that that is the real issue here. I feel that the mother should seek the advice of her daughter's local and associate teachers to find out the best way of allocating the funds which the family has available for the girl's dance training and what the balance should be between ballet classes and classes in other genres of dance. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pointe-less Posted May 16, 2016 Author Share Posted May 16, 2016 Could I ask what the opinion of her home and Associate teachers are? Being an RBS MA is a sign of great potential. Has the physique changed with puberty? Does the dd want to consider a non classical career? Branching out also extends career opportunities in teaching etc. I personally think spending time on modern is useful to ballet and offers diversity. Others less relevant to ballet but obviously more diversity. The mum hasn't really spoke to her associate teacher, I think she feels that the teacher doesn't truly "get" her dd, as stated in the OP the daughter is rather stiff and not very good at expressing herself or flowing and I think the associate teacher thinks she lacks passion for ballet (although nothing has ever been said its just the DD's impression) Her body hasn't really changed and she still has the "perfect" ballet body, beautiful legs and feet etc She used to do a little bit of tap, modern and acro but gave it all up to concentrate on her ballet so I think she is torn between going back to being an all rounder or staying just ballet. I think They are scared of putting a nail in the coffin for her ballet career is she does cut her hours now and go back to other genres as 2.5 hours per week is not really enough to keep up the standard required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pointe-less Posted May 16, 2016 Author Share Posted May 16, 2016 Has she ever done any other genres at all, or has it been only ballet throughout her training to date? If she has never done anything else then I would think it's worth exploring some other options. Ballet may well be where her heart lies, but if she hasn't experienced other forms of dance there may be other genres that she hasn't discovered yet. As I understand it, even the more classically focused vocational schools do teach other genres. There are so few job opportunities in purely classical companies so having other strings to her now may be advantageous. It's difficult, if it involves having to drop her favourite classes though. Would there be any chance of taking a few extra classes in other genres just to see how she enjoys them, deferring a final decision until she knows whether she enjoys the other classes at all? Yes pupsmum she started out at a small local school doing troupes in various genres but hasn't dance any other style since she was 11 I think. As for taking on other classes I don't think it's possible without dropping something else as they are stretched to their limit financially. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pointe-less Posted May 16, 2016 Author Share Posted May 16, 2016 Ok, No 1 - No, that's no unsuccessful, she's done really well! She's on two associate programmes, and been offered vocational places (albeit without MDS but they are like gold dust to be honest). No 2 - When it comes to being offered a place for 6th form it is worth remembering that as well as the 4 schools which take from 11-16, there are many more options for 16+ training including ENBS, Central, Ballet West, RCS, BTUK, Northern, and Rambert. So there are far more places available for 16+ training than there are for 11-16. So all is definitely not lost No 3 - Actually, there really aren't any classical-only schools, or indeed jobs any more. All the vocational schools teach contemporary and/or jazz and usually other styles as well as classical. Many upper school ballet auditions will include either contemporary or jazz as part of the audition, so it would probably be a good idea if your friend's dd could do at least one of these styles. Obviously money is tight, but would it be possible for her to attend a summer school or maybe do a few workshops so she could gain just a little experience? Perhaps it might be possible to ask one of her associate teachers for advice about whether she should concentrate on ballet-only, or to branch out and include classes in another style, even if it means dropping one ballet class a week? Thanks Taxi, and yes I agree that he has been successful but I think in their eyes because she isn't actually going off to school it has been an unsuccessful year. I think it has disheartened them a little and left them unsure of what to do as if they cut some ballet it's going to mean she falls behind her peers and that's not going to leave her in a good position going forward to auditions in later years. I think a lot of the problem is finding the best balance of finances and how best to use them, I think you may have a point and as others have also said, she should speak to her associate teachers and see what they recommend. I think they just don't want to burn any bridges but also feel they need to make a change to her training, and all on a budget too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted May 16, 2016 Share Posted May 16, 2016 The mum hasn't really spoke to her associate teacher, I think she feels that the teacher doesn't truly "get" her dd, as stated in the OP the daughter is rather stiff and not very good at expressing herself or flowing and I think the associate teacher thinks she lacks passion for ballet (although nothing has ever been said its just the DD's impression) Her body hasn't really changed and she still has the "perfect" ballet body, beautiful legs and feet etc She used to do a little bit of tap, modern and acro but gave it all up to concentrate on her ballet so I think she is torn between going back to being an all rounder or staying just ballet. I think They are scared of putting a nail in the coffin for her ballet career is she does cut her hours now and go back to other genres as 2.5 hours per week is not really enough to keep up the standard required. Perhaps it could be worth doing a jazz class between now and the summer holidays to bring back the fun and her joy of dancing. Maybe drop one ballet class for a few weeks and see how much she enjoys doing something different for a while? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pointe-less Posted May 16, 2016 Author Share Posted May 16, 2016 There are a lot of 14 yr olds out there who would love to be in one associate program let alone two. For her mother to honestly feel that 'if she hasn't secured a place by now she never will' is so terribly unhelpful. Parents have such an important role to play in nurturing courage, self belief and tenacity. Of course its not always easy, that why we have wine, and this forum. The dd is still young, there are lots more opportunities at 16+ and I really wish her well. I know that it sounds terribly negative, but in her defence she told me that she's trying to be realistic as she doesn't want to pin all their hopes on something and then it not happen. She knows that her daughter isn't a natural performer and really struggles to express herself, she can't afford to do more classes and feels that 5.5 hours isn't enough, they can't afford private lessons and summer schools etc So is her daughter in the best position to secure a place in the future? If she hasn't been good enough to secure an MDS funded place in years 7,8 when they are looking for potential as much as anything else and she can't increase her hours to keep up with her peers and she struggles with the performance aspect too then what hope does she have in securing a place in later years. Obviously without a crystal ball none of us could possibly predict how she will grow and shape as a dancer but I think her mum just wants to give her the best possible start with the money she has. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pointe-less Posted May 16, 2016 Author Share Posted May 16, 2016 This girl obviously has plenty of talent as evidenced by her acceptance on two associate schemes and the offer of places at two schools, albeit without funding. There are very few places available at some schools in years 8 to 10. However, as well as the natural disappointment of the girl and her mother there is the worry that the girl will not be able to 'keep up' with her peers because the family is not in a position to pay for additional lessons. I think that that is the real issue here. I feel that the mother should seek the advice of her daughter's local and associate teachers to find out the best way of allocating the funds which the family has available for the girl's dance training and what the balance should be between ballet classes and classes in other genres of dance.. Thank you Aileen and yes I think the main issue is one of finances, and know how best to distribute her time and money, is she chasing after something that is unrealistic. I felt heartbroken when we were discussing this earlier as her mum said to me that they provide MDS so that ballet is accessible to everyone, even low earners and yet it isn't really is it as you have to be exceptional to gain one and how are you ever going to get that good without being able to afford lots of lessons in the first place! Unless you just a true natural born star and talent of course lol It's a horrible position to be in when your child has such beautiful dreams and money gets in the way. By no means am I saying that if her mum was rich that she'd fulfill those dreams, but let's face it if her mum could afford the fees she would have been living her dream from year 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pointe-less Posted May 16, 2016 Author Share Posted May 16, 2016 Perhaps it could be worth doing a jazz class between now and the summer holidays to bring back the fun and her joy of dancing. Maybe drop one ballet class for a few weeks and see how much she enjoys doing something different for a while? That's a good idea Taxi, I'm sure she could take a break from her non syllabus class for a few weeks, surely that wouldn't cause her a problem with falling behind like missing exam classes would! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pointe-less Posted May 16, 2016 Author Share Posted May 16, 2016 Balletqueen and Lema I'm sure she will be glad to hear that others have had similar feelings/worries. Lema your daughter sounds like she has a lot of potential too from what I've read on the Hammond thread so I'm sure it's a very difficult choice for you too! Good luck for the future to both your dd's xx 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisa O`Brien Posted May 16, 2016 Share Posted May 16, 2016 Perhaps you could explain to both the mother and daughter that taking ballet exams [and achieving high results] are not the be all and end all? Personally I think non syllabus classes,where she will learn to pick up enchainements quickly might be more beneficial to her. If she has to pick one or the other for a while,that is. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamy11 Posted May 16, 2016 Share Posted May 16, 2016 (edited) Have you been able to get any feedback from auditions or find out positions on reserve lists? Many people say there is still time and places could come available. Just today I informed one associate scheme that my dd wouldn't be returning so hopefully someone will get a nice email. What does the child wish to do, does she know? Edited May 16, 2016 by balletqueen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annaliesey Posted May 16, 2016 Share Posted May 16, 2016 I wonder if CAT schemes might be worth considering. It's such a remarkable achievement to be where she is in terms of 2 X vocational places without funding so is not that she isn't good enough, there just isn't enough funding CAT schemes offer MDS funded places and are a mix of ballet and contemporary though I think the amount of ballet varies. They do creative classes and health classes too and they get advice of the CAT manager. I can't give any advice as not in a position to just offering a virtual friendly smile As far as ballet goes we've been advised for the last couple of years to strive for quality not quantity. Perhaps funds could be redirected somehow to support the best your friend can find. Maybe there's some school activities that might be partly if not completely funded that might be good .. Dance club, school dance companies, I'm just thinking it might be nice to work with another teacher in addition to current ones but maybe more relaxed or fun or creative perhaps Good luck to your friend 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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