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What is turnout?


MumToTu

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I have been pondering this for a while and wonder if trained dancers could kindly enlighten me. My DD has very flexible hips and has perfect 180 box splits and even over split them, she could achieve them with very little stretching as she is a hypermobile one. However watching her in class, I couldn't help notice in bar her feet and Demi plies are not very turned out at all and I mean hardly at all, which confused me as she's so bendy.

 

So my big question is, does turn out in bar exercise come from the ability to turn out in box splits, ie from the hip, or is it more of a strength issue?

Edited by Snowflake
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Both! You certainly have to have the "facility" to turn out - i.e. the required mobility to rotate from the hip joint - but if you don't have the strength to maintain turnout, you won't be able to hold it.

 

How old is your dd, if you don't mind me asking?

 

Edited to add: Pictures and I were posting at the same time.

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Yes,I thought that being supple to be able to do the splits and having turnout were two different things? You come across some very flexible people who can naturally do the splits and have never had any sort of dance or gymnastics training. But they wouldn`t have any turnout if they had never done ballet. I had a friend who took ballet lessons with me. She didn`t start until she was 12 and had neither flexibliity or turnout. Absolutely none. I don`t know if ,had she started ballet classes younger she would have been more pliable or not or if that was simply the way her body was constructed.

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She's only 10 and a half Anna C. I just couldn't help but notice at her last parent viewing class, and it really interested me. I assumed that as she can turn out her hips so easily in her box splits, her feet would able to turn out reasonably well in her Demi plies and bar excercises. Or like picturesinfirelight has queried does hip turnout come from a different place in box splits as the leg is in higher position when in splits. So curious about this, thank you for replies x

Edited by Snowflake
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A few years ago Anjuli did a brilliant post on turn out, explaining it well to a non dancer mother! Might come up if you search the forums.

 

Strength is a big part of maintaining turnout. My dd often loses the strength to hold it on one side if she grows. She then needs to work on it to regain the strength to hold it. Watching a proffesional company class you often see the dancers being prodded by the teacher in the buttock area to 'remind' them to hold their turnout.

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Yes, I thought the feet had to turn out in line from the hip, so the rotation comes from the hip not the ankle or knee? That's why I thought having good hip turn in box out may help. But obviously not in my dds case lol, thank you maybe it's a strength issue, if it a strength issue is it easy to improve with practice?

Edited by Snowflake
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Turnout (rotation) and splits are quite different.  Ballet box splits involve rotation, so the knees are to the ceiling and heels to the floor, or even slightly forward so the audience can see the soles of the feet and the behind is firmly on the floor.  Gymnast box splits are without rotation, so knees look to the front and heels to the back and the behind is sticking out backwards - imagine it done on the beam.

 

In ballet, turnout comes from the rotation of the ball & socket joint where the femur fits into the pelvis.

 

Edited for spelling

Edited by Pas de Quatre
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For the last year DD has been attending Gyrotonic classes with an ex Ballet dancer (she also takes DD for private Ballet lessons) and the difference in her turnout is amazing.  I have no idea about the terminology etc, however DD explains it to me that the difference is that she needs to pull 'up' her bum, which in turn gets her pelvis in the right place and then she needs to work on the correct muscles in her tummy and legs to get everything properly aligned.  These are obviously not the technical instructions she received, but what she tells me she has to do for it to be correct.

 

All I can say is that she can now get into a position whereby she is completely flat at the front of her legs as her front thighs appear to be out to the side - not doing a very good job of explaining this, but hopefully you get the picture.

 

What her Gyro teacher explained was that DD wasn't rotating her hip properly previously and in fact was almost rotating her hip out of the socket (!!) so nothing was actually aligned correctly.  At DD's last exam (Intermediate) the examiner actually commented to her teacher afterwards that it's been a long time since she's seen such a fabulous turnout and that the strength and control that DD had should be commended.  (She received a very high Distinction :) )

 

Hope this helps - if not, might be worth a Gyrotonics session to help explain it to your DD.

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Thanks Pas De Quatre, no she does her splits "ballet" box style her hips are turned out and straight knees up to face the ceiling feet pointed interestingly she did have it as her beam mount in gymnastics when she last competed and you stuck your bum out you would tend to fall off it as it's so narrow. I've not heard of the gymnastic splits you are talking about, or maybe they are a progression towards achieving full box splits? But I am certainly no expect in gymnastics, I will ask dd after school. I think I too have seen a famous picture of a beam mount similar to what you are talking about.

 

So, the hip turnout and rotation is there when she's in splits what I am trying to say so that can't be it, thanks anyway for taking the time to reply x

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The splits are a passive stretch. Turn out is an active process, not a passive position. It needs strength and the right balance of muscle use. A lot of ability to use turnout also comes from the  core muscles.

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Perhaps sticking the behind out doesn't convey the feeling - on a beam the gymnast has the toes forward and the heels behind so the foot is almost at right angles to the beam.  It can only be done by allowing the pelvis to tilt.  For ballet, as in Pilates, the "neutral" pelvis without tilt is necessary to allow rotation and turnout. 

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Thank so much ballet taxi, I will look for a Gyro teacher for her. I am sure she is not utilizing her full potential. I don't think she understands she how to turn out, or she can't hold it through lack of strength.

 

. She definitely would benefit from a programme like you've described. She only does one grade 3 class 1 hour a week, plus associates. Thank you. If any one knows of a teacher in the Manchester area that would be Fab?

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Pas de Quatre, my dad does her beam mount in Ballet splits, knees and feet pointed out up to ceiling and balanced without hands out to side in air. But there maybe variations on this. It does always get a few gasps and she is only little still, maybe the older girls are allowed to do it differently using their feet to hold on a little due to their size, but dd says apparently she thinks it gets a deduction x

Edited by Snowflake
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I think you asked somewhere Snowflake whether the ballet turnout can be gained with practice and yes it can. Your daughter is only 10 and a half .....she has a bit of time yet!!

 

It's much harder to maintain because as a previous poster said this is an active engagement and is weight bearing ......sometimes on one leg while the working leg may be doing all sorts of things .....so it does require a lot of strength to be able to hold the turn out with everything aligned correctly(no rolling feet etc)

 

There are in fact very few people even in the ballet world who have what is called full "flat turnout" (180 degrees) and who can actually work with this level. You just have to work with the best of what your body allows you.

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It takes years to learn how to engage all the correct muscles to hold a good turnout. My daughter has an almost flat turnout, but it took a good private teacher on a one to one basis to prod, align and correct her. She also finds holding her turnout easier in positions such as arabesque etc, I don't know why but that's what she said.

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Yes re those beam splits I think I have seen it done like that too.

But she is definitely fully rotating her hips and even can rotate her feet back a little to like you described so her heel point forward, she is just comfortable in this split and it has always been her easiest split.

 

I am just confused why she can't use much of that hip rotation in her ballet turn out. She's not really very turned out at all you see lol. Just out of total curiosity more than anything else.

Edited by Snowflake
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I am not sure Tulip, I will quiz her later when she gets home Though dd mentioned her the teacher telling never to turn out so their knees aren't level with the toes, as they of course could injure themselves. It wouldn't surprise me if dd is being a bit over cautious and not turning out at all just to be on the safe side and injure herself. It wouldn't surprise me at all if she was doing this knowing my dd....! I think I will ask her teacher, I am so curious about this now.

Edited by Snowflake
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Pas de Quatre, I have found your beam mount it is called a Japana it's a different skill the bum does stick out on this one and the pelvis and body is tilted slightly forward with the feet forward over the beam. I think my dd had to do this one once for a compulsory move in a grade x

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Gymnast box splits are without rotation, so knees look to the front and heels to the back and the behind is sticking out backwards - imagine it done on the beam.

 

 

I've done a coaching course with British Gymnastics and box or side splits are definitely taught with hips rotated (knees to the ceiling.) However, when performed in a competitive routine, there is no deduction for lack of rotation.

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My DD can do box splits effortlessly, but has had to work hard at her turnout. She does exercises given to her by her teacher and has improved an awful lot but finds she is still more turned out on one side than the other. She can also get flat in froggy, which is an exercise often used to see the degree of rotation they have (I think), but still can't hold her turnout completely when standing. Although like I say it has improved a lot in five months of regular exercises - she is almost flat in 1st now and on one side in fifth but the other side (her less 'open' side) not as good in fifth. 

 

From what I have learned from speaking to teachers some people have bone structure that prevents them turning out, in other cases it can be muscle tightness from overusing certain muscles that can precent them from accessing their full turnout, and then they need to learn the correct muscles (deep rotators) to use to hold their turnout. This is why they could be flat in froggy but not when they stand in it. Maintaining their turnout is even harder when dancing - her teacher (who was a first soloist with the RB) says when dancing something difficult you have to think about actively maintaining it all the time. So, my understanding is you can have a lot of natural rotation but activating it and holding it whilst dancing takes a lot of effort and time to develop and use the correct muscles.

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Thank you for your replies. I don't know if she's flat in the froggy stretch, I don't think she practises that one. But, she said gets her knees flat to floor in the butterfly. So, I don't know but I don't think the passive stretch is her problem, it seems to be she can't hold it in a standing position. She can do 5th position really well when her legs are straight. It seems to be mostly a problem in 1st and during Demi Plies when she bends her knees, she doesn't look very turned out, so her knees come kind of forward instead of out and her bum sticks out, she looks a bit like she's doing a squat, poor thing, she did say she hadn't practised them much as they aren't in Grade 3 yet, so maybe now she's on grade 4 she may get to work on her turnout a bit more? Is that a progression in the grades?

 

I find it very confusing and interesting as a bit of a Yoga fan myself, I am really interested in how it all works, all that flexibility, but she can't seem to use it. I must add she is actually strong too especially in her core, but I don't know if she has built up the particular muscles she needs for turnout, or how she can acquire them.

 

She's nearly finished dance for the for the summer holidays now, I may have to find a summer school for her to not lose what she has worked on so far, and I have found a very fancy looking Gyro tonic studio near us who do private lessons, we can go together for a session and see if that helps over the summer. She has her auditions next year for vocational school and mids next year, yikes, and she really wants a place, it does look like something she needs work on.

 

I must add everything else looked lovely in her class, especially her feet and arabesques, she definitely has the "banana" feet at least. Are they a huge plus? Hopefully they will distract from the lack of turnout

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In terms of aesthetics, banana feet are a plus. However, they can be more prone to injury - not always, but sometimes. A bit of a double edged sword, I expect. :-)

 

I'm surprised the JA teacher isn't starting to teach the basics of properly executed plies, or correcting posture and alignement....?

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Anna my thought too. Sounds like the teacher needs to be correcting your daughters position especially if you can see there is a problem with her plié. I can't remember when things are introduced in the grades but thought plies was early? It will be one of first exercises at the barre in the audition.

If her pelvis is tilted or tucked this will automatically limit her turn out. Her hips won't be able to go through their full range in the socket.

Why not consider a couple of dance physio sessions to assess her range and give advice if she wants to audition for next year.

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I expect she is Anna C, she has said she does them at her associates, but not yet in her grade class. Both her teachers are absolutely amazing. It is definitely to a limition dd has for certain.

Hopefully, one she can improve on for next year, I am hoping moving up to grade 4 may help? interestingly she did look turned out when she held her leg up horizontally. She certainly had me confused and it interests me a lot, but I am sure experienced ballet teachers have seen this many times before....! I expect every students body is so individual.

Edited by Snowflake
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Jane, thank you. I think I will do that. Her pelvis most definably wasn't tucked but was tilted, as she was sticking her bottom out. I think she would definitely benefit from a few sessions with a dance physio. I thought it maybe lack of practice, but if it sounds like something which is introduced early, it can't be.

 

She seems very concerned with keeping her knees over toes, which is correct, but I wonder if she is leaning forwards to look at them, as she isn't yet confident enough to feel where she should be, although she would have been told I know, she's very strict with herself about proper form, so I know she'll be trying.

 

Could anybody help with a Dance Ballet Physio in Manchester? It will be a great thing to do with her over summer she will really enjoy it and I believe it could really help her,

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My youngest dd who is only six and in Grade 1 (RAD) has been doing plies since primary. It is one of the exercises taught early and should have been corrected by Grade 3 I would have thought?

My older dd has great turnout but has had to work hard to get into box splits, so I don't think the two can be related. Interestingly the froggy position on her back that has been mentioned was one of the first things she had to do in her vocational auditions during the physio assessment and she can achieve this with very little effort (knees flat to floor). She was offered places in all three schools we applied for so it could well be something they look for.

Good luck to your dd :-)

Edited by Eowyn
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